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Quilters Find a way to care

QHL Digest for Tuesday, April 27, 2004.

1. Black figures "antique" crib quilt on eBay 2. Question about vestments 3. Trying to email Anne Johnson 4. Re: Question about vestments 5. Giving that quilt to relatives 6. Re: Question about vestments 7. patchwork vestments 8. Re: Longevity of Quilts (long) 9. womens work has always been undervalued 10. Re: patchwork vestments 11. Re: womens work has always been undervalued 12. RE: Seller's response 13. Re: Longevity of Quilts (long) 14. ebay black uncle sam quilt. 15. The quilt in question 16. What it Costs to Make a Quilt 17. Egyptian applique

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Subject: Black figures "antique" crib quilt on eBay From: DDBSTUFFaol.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:31:30 EDT X-Message-Number: 1

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Black figures "antique" crib quilt on Ebay

I agree that this piece is not very old. There were a lot of these floating around about 10 years ago. Well, I guess they have a little age but are they worth the price? Apparently, some 24 bidders thought so. I have several blocks from the 1880s of a similar but more interesting pieced image which I bought at a flea market in Danbury Conn. back in the late 70s or early 80s. They are the only old version of this I have ever seen. If I can find the time, I'll put them on the eboards for all to see.

Come to think of it, there may have been a complete quilt pictured in one of the early Quilt Engagement Calendars. Does anyone remember that one?

Darwin

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Subject: Question about vestments From: "Karen" <charter.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:11:40 -0400 X-Message-Number: 2

I was recently looking through a little book on Balkan religious art, and saw several frescoes and icons depicting what appear to be vestments pieced in cross patterns (including one that looks amazingly like Single Irish Chain). These frescoes and icons all date from the 14th to 16th centuries.

Does anyone know more about this? Or if contemporary Orthodox vestments are pieced or woven? I'm working on a class on pieced clothing of the late Renaissance and would love to use these pictures as an example of liturgical patchwork, but am a bit worried about whether these vestments were actually woven.

Thanks in advance. The good people on this list are a wonder.

Karen Evans Easthampton, MA

P.S. - Sally - the booklet arrived safe and sound. Eternal thanks!

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Subject: Trying to email Anne Johnson From: Sandy7827aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:18:11 -0400 X-Message-Number: 3

Morning, I do alot of lurker on this list but I read everything, I think learning about antique quilt is priceless, but right now I'm like to get in contract with Anne Johnson about a article her did on Tobacco Premium Quilt. Could anyone help with this. I would greatly appreciate.

Keep the discussions going, enjoy evry bit.

Sandra

It is difficult to experience moments of happiness if we are not aware of what it is we genuinely love." — Sarah Ban Breathnach

Sandra Nichols Assistant Librarian/LRC Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science (formerly Finch University of Health Sciences/The Chicago Medical School) 3333 Green Bay Road North Chicago, IL 60064 847-578-8344 Fax: 847-578-3401 nicholsjfinchcms.edu

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Subject: Re: Question about vestments From: "jocelynmdelphiforums.com" <jocelynmdelphiforums.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:29:58 +0000 X-Message-Number: 4

On April 27, 2004, Karen wrote:

> I was recently looking through a little book on Balkan religious art, and > saw several frescoes and icons depicting what appear to be vestments piec= ed > in cross patterns=20 Karen, Are you familiar with tablet weaving? It was used historically to make broc= aded vestments. However, it tended to be used for texture contrast not colo= r contrast (like patchwork).

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Subject: Giving that quilt to relatives From: "Vernon Farms" <vernonfarmssisna.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:36:31 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5

Hi, I made a quilt for my father-in-law. It took months of hard work. I took old family pictures of all the family, (10 children, many many grandchildren)and put the photocopies on fabric. I then quilted it by hand. When I gave it to him at his 90th birthday party with all the families there. His fourth wife (he has outlived all the others) said "Oh it's so pretty it shouldn't be put over the end of the couch," so she proceeded to put it on the wall. She wouldn't listen to anyone or let anyone help her. She used 3 NAILS, 2 SCREWS, and 3 THUMBTACKS to put it on the wall! Everyone was aghast! We all knew that you didn't say anything that what she was doing was wrong as my father-in-law would rather disown a child than make any of his wives feelings hurt. So I sat there stunned. Many of my husbands sisters and brothers and even the grandchildren (who had kids of their own) came to me and apologized for what she had done. We all felt terrible. It is still hanging on the wall. II'm pretty sure that the screws were rusty! When we got home I immediately got all the fabric that I had used for the binding and the other pieces of fabric and put them in a box so when my father-in-law passes away and the quilt comes back to us I can repair what she did. AND THAT QUILT WILL COME BACK TO US. I am very careful of who I give a quilt to now.

I'm glad I made the quilt for him as it is a type of genealogy of the family but boy, she put a whole new light on the word mother-in-law.

On a lighter note I do use those cheap quilts from Walmart on my bed. We have 4 cats and 1 dog that jump on our bed all day, and I prefer to wash those cheap things than put my appliqued Whig Rose on the bed. I just make sleeve holders for my precious ones and hang them properly on the wall.

Thank for letting me spill my feelings Su Vernon

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Subject: Re: Question about vestments From: "Karen" <charter.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:12:27 -0400 X-Message-Number: 6

I was wondering whether it was woven or not...these particular patterns were all over, and didn't look like they'd been tablet woven. It was very striking and looked amazingly like patchwork, to the point that the only reason I'm not sure is that Orthodox art is so stylized that one has to be careful about taking the forms at face value.

*argh* There's so much coming out of Eastern Europe these days, and we know so little about it in the West...would you believe that some of the very best preserved examples of Ottoman brocades were found in Orthodox cathedral treasuries?

And to think I stupidly signed up to teach pieced clothing as a class at Pennsic...*bangs head repeatedly against desk*...

Karen Evans ----- Original Message ----- From: <jocelynmdelphiforums.com> To: "Quilt History List" <qhllyris.quiltropolis.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:29 AM Subject: [qhl] Re: Question about vestments

On April 27, 2004, Karen wrote:

> I was recently looking through a little book on Balkan religious art, and > saw several frescoes and icons depicting what appear to be vestments pieced > in cross patterns Karen, Are you familiar with tablet weaving? It was used historically to make brocaded vestments. However, it tended to be used for texture contrast not color contrast (like patchwork).

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Subject: patchwork vestments From: "Newbie Richardson" <pastcraftsverizon.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:19:22 -0400 X-Message-Number: 7

Karen and list, Vestments are a secret a passion of mine. The Western European ones are a wonderful source of early damasks and brocades. In the 16th, 17th and 18th c wealthy noble families routinely donated "out of style" fabrics to the Church to be recycled into vestments and altar hagings. Many of the ones I have seen frequently are made with two, if not three, different patterns of silk to create a cope ( cape) or chasuble, (the shield shaped garment worn by priests), as well as altar frontals, etc. This applies to the Roman Catholic Church, (those that escaped both the ravages of the Reformation and of Vatican II) the Anglican Church in England (because of the Oxford movement), and some of the older, southern Anglican Episcopal churches in the US, and the Eastern Orthodox churches. In this case, I am not sure the term patchwork is accurate. It is not so much a deliberate use of piecing to create a pattern, but rather a clever way to recycle several different precious pieces of fabric into a uniform whole.

see 'High Fashion in The Church' by Pauline Johnstone published by Maney in 2002 ISBN#1 902653 60 9 (paper) & 'Soieries Sacristie' by Christine Aribaud catalog of an exhbit at the Musee Paul-Dupuy, Toulouse, 1998 ISBN 2-85056-337-4 Newbie Richardson The Costume and Textile Specialists Appraisals, Conservation, & Exhibition Alexandria and Richmond, VA

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Subject: Re: Longevity of Quilts (long) From: "Larry Wohlgemuth" <larrywgreenhills.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:48:58 -0500 X-Message-Number: 8

My question is why is it near impossible to get out of a new quilt what went into it? Why is the value of the whole not worth the sumof it's parts? hear the frustration?

A little back ground. I am a quilter, scholar, I have been eavesdropping on your wonderful list for a while now. I also teach quilting at the local vo tech and to whoever wants to drop in at my home. It is frustrating to know that I can't sell a new quilt and hope to get anything for my time and talent. Thank you wal mart for importing that junk from china. I'm done now. Sherrie

----- Original Message ----- From: <alanalankelchner.com> To: "Quilt History List" <qhllyris.quiltropolis.com> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 12:05 PM Subject: [qhl] Re: Longevity of Quilts (long)

> I've been asked many times to make someone a quilt for the bed. And my > immediate response is to determine the intentions of the asker, after one or > two nearly fainted at the cost. Do you want an heirloom or a bedspread ? At > this point, *all* inquiries wanted a bedspread, so I've automatically suggested > Penney's. They're inexpensive, easy to acquire - and about the time you're > ready to change the bedroom decor, it's time to replace the thing anyway. > > I remember being absolutely shocked that people would buy commercially made > quilts. No longer. I would much rather have these people use a quilt made for > their purposes, then expect that they would all have my sensibilities for fine > workmanship. > > Besides, I then have a better chance of acquiring the good stuff ! > > Alan > > > --- >

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Subject: womens work has always been undervalued From: "Newbie Richardson" <pastcraftsverizon.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:09:44 -0400 X-Message-Number: 9

The failure of intricate hand work projects to sell for their true value is an historical truth. It probably comes from the days when labor was negligible in the calulation of value: the cost of a garment or bed hangings in the 18th c was in the fabrics not the labor. Then we had that period when women's contibution to the economy was deingrated - starting in the 2nd quarter of the 19th century when manufacturing got going. As many of you on the list know, I smock childrens clothing. Only once have I gotten full market price for an outfit: when it was a flower girl. People are used to "outrageous" prices in bridal! Newbie

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Subject: Re: patchwork vestments From: "Karen" <charter.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:52:38 -0400 X-Message-Number: 10

Ooo, sounds like fun. Thanks for the tip, Newbie!

Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Newbie Richardson" <pastcraftsverizon.net> To: "Quilt History List" <qhllyris.quiltropolis.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: [qhl] patchwork vestments

> Karen and list, > Vestments are a secret a passion of mine. > The Western European ones are a wonderful source of early damasks and > brocades. > In the 16th, 17th and 18th c wealthy noble families routinely donated "out > of style" fabrics to the Church to be recycled into vestments and altar > hagings. Many of the ones I have seen frequently are made with two, if not > three, different patterns of silk to create a cope ( cape) or chasuble, (the > shield shaped garment worn by priests), as well as altar frontals, etc. > This applies to the Roman Catholic Church, (those that escaped both the > ravages of the Reformation and of Vatican II) the Anglican Church in England > (because of the Oxford movement), and some of the older, southern Anglican > Episcopal churches in the US, and the Eastern Orthodox churches. > In this case, I am not sure the term patchwork is accurate. It is not so > much a deliberate use of piecing to create a pattern, but rather a clever > way to recycle several different precious pieces of fabric into a uniform > whole. > > see 'High Fashion in The Church' by Pauline Johnstone published by Maney > in 2002 ISBN#1 902653 60 9 (paper) > & 'Soieries Sacristie' by Christine Aribaud catalog of an exhbit at the > Musee Paul-Dupuy, Toulouse, 1998 ISBN 2-85056-337-4 > Newbie Richardson > The Costume and Textile Specialists > Appraisals, Conservation, & Exhibition > Alexandria and Richmond, VA > > > --- >

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Subject: Re: womens work has always been undervalued From: "Karen" <charter.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:56:09 -0400 X-Message-Number: 11

Not to mention all the unpaid but expected labor involved in cleaning, cooking, childcare, home maintenance, and shopping that the average woman faces in her lifetime. It would cost a typical family something on the order of $30-35,000 per year to purchase such services, especially the childcare. And that at, childcare workers and teachers are dramatically underpaid considering their impact on our children.

It's enough to make me vote for Emma Goldman, even though she's been dead for a long, long, long time....

Karen Evans ----- Original Message ----- From: "Newbie Richardson" <pastcraftsverizon.net> To: "Quilt History List" <qhllyris.quiltropolis.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:09 PM Subject: [qhl] womens work has always been undervalued

> The failure of intricate hand work projects to sell for their true value > is an historical truth. It probably comes from the days when labor was > negligible in the calulation of value: the cost of a garment or bed hangings > in the 18th c was in the fabrics not the labor. Then we had that period when > women's contibution to the economy was deingrated - starting in the 2nd > quarter of the 19th century when manufacturing got going. > As many of you on the list know, I smock childrens clothing. Only once > have I gotten full market price for an outfit: when it was a flower girl. > People are used to "outrageous" prices in bridal! > Newbie > > > --- >

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Subject: RE: Seller's response From: "Jocelyn Martin" <jocelynmdelphiforums.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:03:07 -0500 X-Message-Number: 12

>>>specifically, the quilt was made. She replied that with doubts as serious as mine, she would be happy if I passed on bidding on the auction. Since the auction had already ended, I found this remark to be a little bit odd.

Which brings up another point: feedback is only so good. Remember, a seller can get their feedback by BUYING things from other sellers, as well as from satisfactory sales. And they could have sold a bunch of things other than quilts. Having promptly paid for the things they bought, and having sold 2000 Pez dispensers, are not useful feedback about whether this person knows quilts. :)

The above comment matches with my experience- many sellers just don't care if they're misrepresenting merchandise, so long as the buyer is happy. That's why it's important to keep a list of sellers who've made questionable sales, and avoid them in our own bidding.

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Subject: Re: Longevity of Quilts (long) From: "Jocelyn Martin" <jocelynmdelphiforums.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:12:57 -0500 X-Message-Number: 13

>>My question is why is it near impossible to get out of a new quilt what went into it? Why is the value of the whole not worth the sumof it's parts?

I think the answer is that so few people truly want a work of art; they're wanting a bedspread. So of course they are not willing to pay for the costs of materials and $10+ per hour for labor.

If all you want is a bedcovering, and you can get one for $40 or less, then paying $500 or more doesn't make sense. The market for quilts- collectors who appreciate the work that went into them- is quite small compared to the market for bedspreads.

OTOH, I don't want to pay haute coiture prices for my everyday clothes, nor do I want to wear haute coiture for everyday! I don't want to use linen tablecloths and napkins for everyday. I'm sure the people who make these things lament that they can't get the costs of materials and labor out of them, too. And think about all the amateur painters who can't sell their paintings for anything close to the materials and labor. Or the street musicians, who get a few bucks tossed into their instrument cases for hours of practice and performance.

It's just a fact of life: the vast majority of people in any creative field aren't going to be able to sell their work for what they value it.

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Subject: ebay black uncle sam quilt. From: "Patchwork Secrets" <patchworksecrets2earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:29:15 -0400 X-Message-Number: 14

I have 5 of the fabrics used in that quilt still in my stash all from 1980's-1990's. I have my doubts about it's authenticity. All were very popular prints with crafters and were all produced around the same time. I believe they are Marcus brothers but I will pull some of it tomorrow and see what the selvedges say. I purchased it by the bolt so still have plenty. I think I even have the block in a pattern book somewhere if I can find time to hunt this week. Too bad we can't examine the batting that would probably tell the true story.

I have purchased several vintage quilt tops, blocks and even a couple of finished vintage quilts off of ebay and been extremely happy. Especially with a jewel made of dyed tobacco pouches..lol.. But it takes investigation and a seller willing to go the extra mile with pictures and detailed info.

Sharon in NC Final Sue in Kitty Hawk blocks now available http://home.earthlink.net/~patchworksecrets/patchworksecretsquiltpatterns/index.html

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Subject: The quilt in question From: "Pam Weeks Worthen" <pamworthenhotmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:49:06 -0400 X-Message-Number: 15

In reference to the debate concerning the small quilt that recently sold on eBay--

I have to chime in on the side of the "I don't think it's that old" crowd. While visiting Barb Wright in Sturbridge about 4 years ago on an antique quilt quest, we were shown a small quilt with black-faced figures in dresses and aprons, as described by another list member. We studied it carefully, and were shown a photo from a book (I think it was Bishop, and will run upstairs to look in a minute) of the same pattern, c. 1930.

BUT, on close examination, we could tell that the "aged" fabrics on the top surface of the quilt were not tea-dyed, but rubbed with a waxy/oily substance to make them darker. If you look carefully at the photos in this listing, it appears that the same process was used. I have purchased and made one of Gail Wilson's doll kits, and she provides paint and wax for "aging" the fabrics and carefully describes the process in her amazing directions.

I also have the navy "star and cresent" print in my c. 1980's stash, as well as the navy print with the little pear shaped ditties.

For what my two cents are worth tonight, having just returned from a deliberate, wandering, 3 day drive from Paducah, where I was delighted to meet and see so many of you from this list!

Pam Weeks Worthen

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Subject: What it Costs to Make a Quilt From: "J. G. Row" <JudyGrowpatmedia.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:27:30 -0400 X-Message-Number: 16

This was on a web site which I have saved to my favorites but is unavailable now. I just tried to get there so I could copy the URL for y'all. It was copyrighted to 2 S.A Broads in 1998. Luckily I had copied it to Word Perfect.

Remember that the following cost estimates are 6 years old. There are only a few quilters in this country who can ask and get in 5 figures for their quilts, but that is what a well made American quilt could cost if priced as skilled labor.

What it Costs to Make a Quilt

QUEEN-SIZED, PIECED & HAND QUILTED Material

Fabric $170 to $200

Batting $25 to $40

Thread, etc. $10 to $20

...Total $ Invested $205 to $260

Hours

Piecing 10 to 40

"Setting" 2 to 10

Quilting 500 to 950

...Total Hours Invested 512 to 950

TOTAL COST Paying $1.00/hour (Would you do this type of work for $1.00/hour?)

Materials: $205 to $260 Labor: $512 to $950 $717 to $1,210

Paying minimum wage ($5.15/hour)

Materials: $205 to $260 Labor: $3692 to $4892

$3897 to $5152

Paying $20/hour (skilled labor)

Materials: $205 to $260 Labor: $10,340 to $19,000

$10,545 to $19,260

© 2 S.A. Broads

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Subject: Egyptian applique From: "Karen Erlandson" <quiltercooke.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:11:01 -0500 X-Message-Number: 17

Previously, we've had discussions about Egyptian panels here - but, I can't find any of the posts - can someone refresh my memory about these - the one I am looking at is about 36 inches wide and 66 inches long - appliquéd Egyptian figures on it - could be from pre-1900. Thanks for any help! Karen

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Subject: that little quilt again... From: "Pam Weeks Worthen" <pamworthenhotmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:18:34 -0400 X-Message-Number: 1

Just checked, and the quilt I saw a few years ago was similar to the quilt on page 55 of Robert Bishop's "new Discoveries in American Quilts". I was remembering aprons, and the bodies of the figures are apron shaped.

Pam Weeks Worthen

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell

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Subject: value of women's work - continued From: Debby Kratovil <kratovilhis.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:38:49 -0400 X-Message-Number: 2

coming out of lurkdom ... launched my own business recently and left my other job with a [very small] salary - not the one at the magazine. It's all about quilting. Uninformed people ask if I'll be selling my quilts now. I tell them "no." It's not worth it. If I sell a quilt, it's gone. (And I've sold several quilts at one time or another). What I do is write about them, design them, pattern them, teach others how to make them. If I sell a quilt after I make it, then I lose an opportunity to use it as a class sample. If I make a quilt and get it into a magazine, it pays. Then I own the rights and I can pattern it in a pack - it pays. I can archive it on a CD, it pays. I can use it as a class sample or part of a trunk show, it pays. Then when it has served its purpose over and over again, then I can sell it or give it away. So, even my husband understands! It's in education and marketing, etc that brings value to my quilts. So I work smarter now and I can multiply what that quilt can bring. It has changed my whole outlook, because I say "no" to making any quilt for anyone (graduation, wedding, etc) unless I see it as a way to also publish, show, teach from it first. And yes, I do make quilts for people and GIVE them away (baby quilts, weddings, etc). I just figured out a way to get back what I put into them in another way. And I think clever women through the years have figured out their own ways to do this very thing with whatever their handwork produces. Just my 2 cents - back to lurkdom ... -- Debby (with a "y" and not "ie") Kratovil http://www.quilterbydesign.com Visit my workshops page for guild programs!

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Subject: re: And the name of the block is..... From: JBQUILTOKaol.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:56:20 EDT X-Message-Number: 3

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Old enough to have fabric from the '80s???

That was 20 years ago & it should be considered collectable by now, if not vintage! (I have some fabrics from my early quilting years that I almost morn when I use the last scrap.)

Along those same lines, a quilt made in the late 20th century quilting revival should be recognized as a valuable part of quilt history in its own right - as much as a 1930's. Those were the years when there were far fewer 'expert' teachers and the 'quilt police' were out in full force dictating what was & wasn't the 'right' way to make quilts. Turning a quilt instead of binding it was revolutionary at a time when new quilters were trying to decipher directions for making the required bias binding.

Janet Bronston

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Subject: Quilting Frame From: "Sally Ward" <sallytattersntlworld.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:12:28 +0100 X-Message-Number: 4

Does anyone have experience of/comments about the Grace EZ3 (folding) quilting frame? Comments off-list, please.

Sally W Sallytattersntlworld.com

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Subject: Re: Egyptian applique From: Xenia Cord <xenialegacyquilts.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:31:08 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5

Blaire O'Gagnon wrote an article in Uncoverings 2003, Volume 24 of the Research Papers of the American Quilt Study Group, on Egyptian Appliqués (131-162). The article covers the history of the textiles from the Pharaonic period to the present (briefly), and also provides a textile analysis and a number of images.

Xenia

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Subject: Just a thought From: Patricia L Cummings <quiltersmusecomcast.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:44:28 -0400 X-Message-Number: 6

Many of you have said that you have repro fabrics in the same design patterns as are in the little quilt in question. It seems like a gigantic leap to go from that statement to the conclusion that the little quilt is not of the time period the seller says it is. "Repro" means a reproduction, i.e. fabrics that were reproduced based on other fabrics from an earlier time. Isn't it logical to assume that the fabrics are original, until proven to be otherwise? Having similar ones in your stash means that you liked these repros so much, you bought them, too.

I'll state again that I don't know how anyone can come to sweeping conclusions about the muslin. Low resolution jpegs distort color. This whole situation reminds me of a time that someone asked me to appraise a crazy quilt from an internet picture. Number one, I am not an appraiser and have no interest in becoming one. Number two, the person in question then told me that she had paid someone else to appraise her quilt and she just wanted to see if I was in agreement. This is a bogus practice (making determinations from a digital image). One should really see the item, up close and personal, and in ways that can't be done via an internet photo.

I don't know if the little quilt is authentic or not (to the 1920s) and at this point, I don't really care. It will be fun to go through all of my quilt history books, looking for other examples. Now that someone mentioned it, seems that I did see a quilt of this type in one of the calendars. More recently, the design was recreated by Lucy Fazeley and was published in The Quilter magazine. :)

Thanks again to Judy K. for bringing this topic to our attention. It has made for a lively discussion.

Hoping that you all have a good day. :)

Patricia Cummings

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Subject: Little Quilt in Question From: Ark Quilts <quiltarkmvyahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 7

Hello everyone on this frosty morning in NW Ohio. It snowed yesterday and was 31 degrees this am....Mother Nature has forgotten it is supposed to warm up as spring progresses.....

I keep going back to the Little Quilt on Ebay that has been discussed on the list this week. I went back & looked at the photos and each time I get stuck on the way the edges were finished. If you look at the imported quilts, that "envelope " style of finishing the egde of a quilt is the most frequently used technique on the imported quilts. I have been collecting ads for the imports for years and probably have 1,000+ ads. Separate binding is rare for imports. Just like I think it is rare for antique quilts to be finished in the "envelope" style.

It seems to me that somewhere in my collection of clippings (some of which many kind members on this list sent to me-thanks), there was a catalog from a mail order company that advertised "Americana" quilts that were imports. I will try to find the listing sometime in the next week if possible & maybe I can get a photo of it posted for all to see.

The other detail which sticks in my mind about this Little Quilt on Ebay is the frayed seam in one of the photos. That is the most common complaint that I have heard from people who wash the imports, that the seam allowances are not consistent & fray when they are washed.

This is just my opinion and I guess this item's authenticity remains "questionable" in my mind until some concrete evidence pops up. And, always, with any purchase....buyer beware...on Ebay, the flea market, or your favorite department store! I still think that ALL imported quilts (and other reproduction items of antiques) need to have a permanent label identifying them as imports. I think the confusion is only about to begin over the authenticity of quilts & imports....that's why I am compelled to collect ads on imported quilts.

Connie Ark

 

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Subject: Crib quilt on eBay From: The Lesters <jeanlesterntown.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:11:18 -0400 X-Message-Number: 8

As an "old timer" I vote that it's a newer quilt. I still have some of the prints used and they were from the early 80"s. It was made later than that because of the reproductions, though. They never said in the description that it was old--only that it was from their collection and sewn with treadle machine. A "little" evasive?? As a machine collector, the needle and bobbin never knew whether it was run by foot or motor, the mechanism was the same.

Jean

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Subject: Re: Crib quilt on eBay From: "mgmooney" <mgmooneymoonware.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:53:15 -0400 X-Message-Number: 9

Throwing in my two cents here: what caught me attention right away was the statement about aniline dyes. I don't think so! As you all know, just because aniline dyes may (or more likely NOT) be present, doesn't make it old necessarily. hmmm... think they did dye analysis?! Seems to be another "if it's sewn with a treadle machine" and/or "if it's dyed with aniline dyes" = "it must be old" Use those buzz words in your product description! :-) Regards, Margaret (Meg) Geiss-Mooney Textile/Costume Conservator Professional Associate, AIC mgmooneymoonware.net

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Subject: Re: Cost to make a quilt From: Anne Copeland <anneappraiser1juno.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:07:29 -0700 X-Message-Number: 10

I had never seen that information, Judy, but I wrote an article on the subject that was published in the SAQA newsletter a year or so ago. I made a table of what you are earning based on number of hours you spent on the quilt. However, I also noted that design time, picking out fabric, cost of classes and books to give you enough experience to do what you do, cost of tools and electricity (and any other utilities that may be required) all need to be taken into account if you want to get more than McDonald's wages for your work.

When I started appraising quilts in the 80s (I was formally certified in 1993), women who made them were very modest about the value of their work. In fact, many of them were even shocked to realize they had monetary value. They had been totally content to just show them in various quilt shows and receive ribbons for them, and an occasional prize of money. Thank heavens that has all changed, but even today, when I talk at guilds and I suggest that women put their own photos on the back of their quilts with a short bio, hardly anyone "gets" that it is not egotistical to do this--it is simply helping quilt historians and students to be able to know something about the quiltmaker. So we have come a long way technically and knowledge-wise for our quilt work, but we still have a long way to go in learning to value and document our own work. I fear that much of the wonderful work being done today will not be adequately documented because there are many quiltmakers out there who exhibit only in small, local shows even though their work is exceptional, and those kinds of shows are rarely documented in any way at all. It is too bad, because there is so much good information that could be gleaned from the present history. Only the major quilters are fairly well documented, but even then, there is often no chronological development documented in a single piece of work.

Thank you for bringing this up, Judy. It is an important subject that needs more constant attention and action. Peace and blessings, Annie

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Subject: Re: Crib quilt on eBay From: Kris Driessen <krisdriessenyahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:13:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 11

I'm on the road again, but I wanted to throw my two cents in. Years ago (98? 99?) I saw that identical quilt in a booth at a quilt show in Liverpool NY. I dithered over buying it because it looked fake to me. Fabric I didn't recognize, big stitches, knife edge finish - I didn't want to gamble the $50 cost. Glad I didn't now. The fact there is another one out there virtually identical tells me this is a foreign quilt.

I wish we could warn the buyer - the seller obviously doesn't want to hear it. He just made a $550 profit!

Kris

--- mgmooney <mgmooneymoonware.net> wrote: > Throwing in my two cents here: what caught me attention right away > was the statement about aniline dyes. I don't think so! As you all > know, just because aniline dyes may (or more likely NOT) be > present, doesn't make it old necessarily. hmmm... think they did > dye analysis?! Seems to be another "if it's sewn with a treadle > machine" and/or "if it's dyed with aniline dyes" = "it must be old" > Use those buzz words in your product description! :-) > Regards, > Margaret (Meg) Geiss-Mooney > Textile/Costume Conservator > Professional Associate, AIC > mgmooneymoonware.net > > > --- >

 

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Subject: Aniline dyes From: "Karen" <charter.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:55:17 -0400 X-Message-Number: 12

That's a silly statement anyway, since aniline dyes (or something similar) are still being used today. I'd be more impressed if the quilt was allegedly made from indigo dyed cottons (which it probably isn't).....

Karen Evans

----- Original Message ----- From: "mgmooney" <mgmooneymoonware.net> To: "Quilt History List" <qhllyris.quiltropolis.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: [qhl] Re: Crib quilt on eBay

> Throwing in my two cents here: what caught me attention right away was the statement about aniline dyes. I don't think so! As you all know, just because aniline dyes may (or more likely NOT) be present, doesn't make it old necessarily. hmmm... think they did dye analysis?! Seems to be another "if it's sewn with a treadle machine" and/or "if it's dyed with aniline dyes" = "it must be old" Use those buzz words in your product description! :-) > Regards, > Margaret (Meg) Geiss-Mooney > Textile/Costume Conservator > Professional Associate, AIC > mgmooneymoonware.net > > > --- >

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Subject: Re: Ebay quilt From: Barb Garrett <bgarrett421comcast.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:00:21 -0400 X-Message-Number: 13

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050306000300050704060507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While I don't want to needlessly continue a discussion, I do need to respond to Pat's email of this morning. She wrote --

>Many of you have said that you have repro fabrics in the same design patterns...

I at no time said that I had repro fabrics like the ones in the quilt. I never used the word repro fabrics, nor do I remember anyone else using that phrase. We were not saying we had repros of fabric -- we were saying we had those fabrics, and they were printed in the 1980s. I do not believe they are repros -- but new printed designs circa 1980s. The phrase/concept of repro fabrics didn't exist in the 1980s -- it's a 1990s marketing invention. I remember looking for 1890s style fabrics during that time -- they were few and far between -- and very hard to find. I would be very excited when I found a piece that "read" the way I wanted it to -- and you found pieces "one at a time" -- not entire repro lines.

Pat said -- Isn't it logical to assume that the fabrics are original....

Yes, I do believe the fabrics are original -- to the 1980s -- so I decided to do some "go to the source" research today. Judie Rothermel is the designer of "historic style fabrics" for Marcus Brothers, the printers of the crescent and stars fabric, so I wrote to her. She said she has been designing for Marcus since 1987, so I sent her the following emails -- describing my quest, and she very graciously responded. I am cut and pasting them at the end of this note.

Barb in southeastern PA

My 1st note to her - I've been using Marcus fabrics for "years" and have a question about a print from the 80s. If you were designing for them then, I'd appreciate discussing the fabric with you. Thanks, Barb Garrett

Her response - barbara, I started designing for marcus in 1987 and my firsyt collection was centennial prints in brown, blue, navy, green, red. their were 62 pieces in the line. the fabrics I did this past year called bread and butter were of the same era and color. thank you and keep using my fabrics and I will keep designing.judie

So I wrote a more detailed note - Hi Judie -

Thank you for writing back so quickly. The fabric I'm hoping to get information about is a Marcus fabric -- selvage says so -- and contains moon crescents done in dots and stars. It came in several colors -- soldier blue, navy, rust -- the country colors of that time period. I can scan a picture of it if you think you can help me. What I'm curious about is whether it is your original design -- assuming you are the designer -- or if you adapted the design from an earlier design as is being done with many repros today. It sounds like it could be from your first line -- the timing seems right and Centennial line sounds like the right name. I'm in a discussion with some people about the invention of "repro fabrics", and I think your early line predates the repro craze, and wasn't repro but rather your design "in the style" of the circa 1890s fabrics. That's why I loved it so much and bought bunches. Thanks for your help, Barb Garrett

Her response - Barb, you are correct it was from my first line. it was my oiginal design and again you are right about the repros. I actually did the first and now others are doing the same. I have always loved the fabrics forn the late 1800s. 1840 to 1890s. my first aunt grace line was a thank you to my great aunt grace who tought me to quilt. all my lines are retros. thank you for your intrest judie

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Subject: Re: Ebay quilt From: Barb Garrett <bgarrett421comcast.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:16:07 -0400 X-Message-Number: 14

While I don't want to needlessly continue a discussion, I do need to respond to Pat's email of this morning. She wrote --

>Many of you have said that you have repro fabrics in the same design patterns...

I at no time said that I had repro fabrics like the ones in the quilt. I never used the word repro fabrics, nor do I remember anyone else using that phrase. We were not saying we had repros of fabric -- we were saying we had those fabrics, and they were printed in the 1980s. I do not believe they are repros -- but new printed designs circa 1980s. The phrase/concept of repro fabrics didn't exist in the 1980s -- it's a 1990s marketing invention. I remember looking for 1890s style fabrics during that time -- they were few and far between -- and very hard to find. I would be very excited when I found a piece that "read" the way I wanted it to -- and you found pieces "one at a time" -- not entire repro lines.

Pat said -- Isn't it logical to assume that the fabrics are original....

Yes, I do believe the fabrics are original -- to the 1980s -- so I decided to do some "go to the source" research today. Judie Rothermel is the designer of "historic style fabrics" for Marcus Brothers, the printers of the crescent and stars fabric, so I wrote to her. She said she has been designing for Marcus since 1987, so I sent her the following emails -- describing my quest, and she very graciously responded. I am cut and pasting them at the end of this note.

Barb in southeastern PA

My 1st note to her - I've been using Marcus fabrics for "years" and have a question about a print from the 80s. If you were designing for them then, I'd appreciate discussing the fabric with you. Thanks, Barb Garrett

Her response - barbara, I started designing for marcus in 1987 and my firsyt collection was centennial prints in brown, blue, navy, green, red. their were 62 pieces in the line. the fabrics I did this past year called bread and butter were of the same era and color. thank you and keep using my fabrics and I will keep designing, judie

So I wrote a more detailed note - Hi Judie -

Thank you for writing back so quickly. The fabric I'm hoping to get information about is a Marcus fabric -- selvage says so -- and contains moon crescents done in dots and stars. It came in several colors -- soldier blue, navy, rust -- the country colors of that time period. I can scan a picture of it if you think you can help me. What I'm curious about is whether it is your original design -- assuming you are the designer -- or if you adapted the design from an earlier design as is being done with many repros today. It sounds like it could be from your first line -- the timing seems right and Centennial line sounds like the right name. I'm in a discussion with some people about the invention of "repro fabrics", and I think your early line predates the repro craze, and wasn't repro but rather your design "in the style" of the circa 1890s fabrics. That's why I loved it so much and bought bunches. Thanks for your help, Barb Garrett

Her response - Barb, you are correct it was from my first line. it was my oiginal design and again you are right about the repros. I actually did the first and now others are doing the same. I have always loved the fabrics forn the late 1800s. 1840 to 1890s. my first aunt grace line was a thank you to my great aunt grace who tought me to quilt. all my lines are retros. thank you for your intrest judie

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Subject: Summary- ebay quilt From: Patricia L Cummings <quiltersmusecomcast.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:15:25 -0400 X-Message-Number: 15

In the discussion about the "Rare Black Figurative Baby Quilt, circa 1920", ebay auction 3717682142, which closed at $676.66, it has been said:

1) the geometry is not right for it to be an exact match to the Oklahomer Boomer pattern, found in the Encyclopedia of Pieced Patterns by Brackman. Not only is the hat a different shape, but the configuration is substantially different.

2) the background fabric appears to have been falsely aged, either through tea-dyeing or by having had a substance rubbed onto its surface

3) the one ragged edge may be present because of faulty construction and this may be a clue to its having been a foreign import

4) the envelope method of finishing may indicate a later date, or an imported quilt, as it is a simpler means of construction.

5) the crescent and stars fabric is an original design by Judy Rothermel and dates from the 1970s (?)

6) the seller's claims to the quilt's fabric having been made by aniline dyes is not proveable without a chemical dye analysis, and also inconsequential, even it were true, as aniline dyes continue to be used today.

7) upon being contacted, the seller did not offer any additional information to support any of her claims

8) the auction was kept private, perhaps because she was misrepresenting something??

9) Kris saw a similar one for sale that was an import and priced at only $50.00.

10) the seller claims that the quilt was made on a treadle sewing machine. However, experts on this list who own and collect treadle machines, say that it is now possible to tell the difference by just looking at something sewn.

That just about summarizes this discussion and I think that you have all made a very strong case for this auction not living up to its title, whether intentionally misrepresented to the public, or not.

Pat in NH who is having a grand day, having had a mama bear and two newly born cubs walk right in front of the car on a back road. Love those backroads. :) Unfortunately, the camera sat at home.

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Subject: Log Cabin Quilt Dates From: Donald Beld <donbeldpacbell.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 16

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Hi everyone, I am back from my sojourn in the UK. Didn't find any old quilts, but, of course, enjoyed my visit.

Sorry, I went through my e-mails quickly and didn't save the info on where to send info on Log Cabin dated quilts.--In our show May 8, we will have a signed and dated 1868 Courthouse Steps and my great-great grandmothers Garfield's Monument is signed and dated 1891. I know that isn't the same as signed and date Log Cabins.

The American Museum of Folk Art in NYC have a Barn Raising Log Cabin by a mother/daughter team that was started in (I think--1861 and finished in 1865--and both the mother and daughter died almost immediately afterwards. However, I think they called it Barn Raising and not Log Cabin--the Musuem refers to it as Log Cabin.

Finally--I looked at the Spider Web, Log Cabin quilt on the auction? antique store? site and sure enough--hexagon Log Cabin--so more speculation--and yes it was me that speculated on Hexagon evolving into Log Cabin. Our British chat line folks NEED to do some research in this area--a fascinating subject for a dissertation perhaps? Don Beld

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