August 19 – 23, 1998
These restored messages come from the Quilt History List, an online forum where quilt historians, collectors, researchers, appraisers, and enthusiasts discussed antique quilts and related textiles. The archive dates from 1996 through approximately 2016 and is being restored gradually. Sign up in the form at the bottom of the page if you want to know when a new page is added. Original spelling, opinions, formatting, and inactive links may remain unchanged.
Primary topics of this QHL Digest:
- Mourning Dress and Mourning Prints — Members discuss the origins of the term ‘weeds’ for mourning clothes, mourning gray fabrics, and the etiquette of mourning dress from Emily Post to Gone With the Wind. (see the article on Victorian mourning customs)
- Zigzag Stitching and Sewing Machine History — A question about what zigzag stitching reveals about a quilt’s age sparks discussion of early zigzag attachments and sewing machine capabilities.
- Linen Quilts — Anne Scott shares research on a linen quilt and members discuss the use and characteristics of linen in historical quilts.
- Cheater Cloth — Continued discussion of cheater cloth history and examples. (see the article on cheater cloth)
- Victorian Fashion and Social Customs — Members discuss Victorian necklines, evening wear versus day wear, and the social rules around women’s dress.
- Pioneer and Westward Migration Quilting — A recommendation for Linda K. Hubalek’s ‘Trail of Thread’ about quilting on the journey west, plus discussion of regional sugar types and pioneer food traditions.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:18:57 EDT | From: Feathrwate [at] aol [dot] com
Didn’t Scarlet about make Aunt PittyPat faint by dancing w/Rhett while still technically mourning her husband? But at least she was still wearing her “weeds”. Xenia, where did that term come from?
Linda
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:46:02 -0400 | From: Jean Ann <quiltmag [at] mindspring [dot] com
hi everyone, i just had a wonderful trip to Carrollton, GA. (Quilt editors get to go to all the exciting destinations!)
I met twin sisters who are 90 years old. They have made quilts since they were children. The first quilt they made was a Mariner’s Compass variation that we call fish. They were children and their aunt brought one block and their mother patterned it and they learned to quilt making this quilt! In their 50 plus quilt collection, there were two quilts that they say have been made by their family since just after the Civil War. Their grandmother, who raised her children alone while her husband was off fighting for the Confederacy made two quilts just after the war was over. One is called PARAGON which is a red and white quilt with trees made from New York Beauty units. The other is called World Whirling and it has two pattern pieces with very curved seams. They are stunning. I will be featuring them in Quilt Almanac which comes out next Feb. These ladies are still quilting and they have absolutely delightful personalities. One starts a sentence and another finishes it. I cant wait to do their story! I photographed 13 of their quilts all of them spectacular!
Jean Ann Eitel, Editor email: quiltmag [at] mindspring [dot] com
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:17:18 EDT | From: Baglady111 [at] aol [dot] com
In reply to Judy and cheater’s cloth..it has been around for a long time..Printed feedsacks came about around 1924 and faded away in the 50’s…and behold!!! there was cheater’s cloth..Don’t know if this is what you were looking for..confirmation of it being back that many years ago..if so..Yes..it was…Jane of THE FEEDSACK CLUB..
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:44:42 -0500 | From: Barbara Wortman <redeagle [at] northlink [dot] com> (by way of “Kris Driessen, Hickory Hill Quilts” <oldquilt [at] albany [dot] net>)
Hi Kris: I have the above applique quilt kit and am looking for the manufacturer and date of the quilt. After reading American Patchwork & Quilting article about kit quilts in the Aug 98 issue, I think perhaps it may be an Alice Cabot quilt.
I know this is a reach, but would you perhaps have any idea how I might go about finding out some info on this kit?
Thanks for your time.
Barb Wortman redeagle [at] northlink [dot] com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:13:52 +0800 | From: “Sally Ward” <sward [at] t-ward [dot] demon [dot] co [dot] uk
My recollection from school is that it is Old English ‘woede’ meaning a garment.
Checking in Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable I found: Spenser wrote in ‘Faerie Queene’
“A goodly lady clad in hunter’s weed”
And Shakespeare in Misdummer Night’s Dream
“And there the snake throws her enamell’d skin Weed wide enough to wrap a fairy in”
Sally in UK
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:13:52 +0800 | From: Con Van Maanen <convan [at] ozemail [dot] com [dot] au
Dear Linda,
We must have been on the same wave length thinking about Scarlet – Gone with the Wind – I remembered that scene with the dancing. Now about mourning prints I have heard lots of hearsay and read some facts. In the book Textile Designs by Susan Meller & Joost Elffers they write that the fabric was worn by widows who had passed out of the stage of mourning proper but that it was also worn by rural women for housework. Now on hearsay and don’t ask me whos, I heard that it was the Mother in Law who dictated how long a widow remained in mourning. Also on hearsay I heard that mourning prints and black silks were not unlike our “daggy trackies” and neat clear attire. When we would wear our daggy track i.e.for house work they would wear their mourning prints and when we tidy up to leave the house and wear something neat and presentable they wear their black silks. It would also account for mourning prints being confused with morning prints. Now if this doesn’t get a few people screaming “stuff and nonsense” I don’t know what will – you know what hearsays like – but its interesting! Dying to know what anyone else knows about mourning prints. Roberta in still winter nearly spring Perth. Australia.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:50:11 EDT | From: Kittencat3 [at] aol [dot] com
In a message dated 98-08-19 22:11:46 EDT, Judy wrote:
<< I wonder why we don’t see more linen in old quilts? I assume it will last at least as long as cotton, probably longer because the fiber is longer than cotton. We still have ancient Egyptian linen around, and in decent condition, considering its great age. >>
Actually, the first known European quilts *are* linen (1390’s). Linen was much, much cheaper than cotton until the late 1700’s, so the vast majority of pre-colonial quilts are of linen (or occasionally of silk). The colonials used a lot of wool because, again, it was cheap and available. Cotton became the fabric of choice due to availability and low price once it became cheap and common in the 19th century.
As for why we don’t use linen today – first, cotton is still cheaper (good handkerchief linen is around $15 a yard in my area, much too expensive for ordinary quilting), and second, since most of us study 19th and 20th century quilts, and since most of those are cotton, we’ve unconsciously come to believe that cotton is the *only* suitable fabric for anything but a crazy. I’ve used linen and much prefer it to cotton for hand quilting, but it’s way too expensive for everyday quilts….
Lisa Evans
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:32:56 -0400 (EDT) | From: JOCELYNM [at] delphi [dot] com
On 20-AUG-1998 07:07:06.0 convan said to JOCELYNM
> Now on hearsay and don’t ask me whos, I heard that it was the Mother in Law who dictated how long a widow remained in mourning. Also on hearsay I heard that mourning prints and black silks were not unlike our “daggy trackies” and neat clear attire. When we would wear our daggy track i.e.for house work they would wear their mourning prints and when we tidy up to leave the house and wear something neat and presentable they wear their black silks. It would also account for
Roberta,
I have a copy of the 1924 Blue Book by Emily Post.
In in, she informs you exactly how long you are supposed to be in mourning, depending on the age of the decedent and their relationship to you, and your own age!
For example, a widow’s mourning period was properly 4 years. However, if she were elderly, she could wear mourning the rest of her life. For the first 2 years, she wore her crepe and crepe veil; for the 3rd year, she wore other black fabrics, and for the 4th year, she went into second mourning (see below). The very young widow would wear crepe for a year, lighter mourning (other fabrics other than crepe, but still solid black) for 6 months, and second mourning for 6 months.
Some of the rules that would make us go ‘huh?’ are:
Women who are ‘in the world’–for example, young women who are working or attending school, may drop their mourning earlier. (shades of, men wear less mourning, and for shorter periods of time, because they are out in the world). Oddly enough, Emily does not specify what their dresses should look like, only that they may choose not to wear the traditional long veil for a year, substituting instead either a short veil or none at all. Teenaged girls wear deep mourning for 3 months, and second mourning for 6 months. Girls of 8 or over wear second mourning for 6 months, and girls under 8 typically did not wear mourning, but instead wore their more somber regular clothing.
Mourning for a child may properly be virtually non-existant. A mother who loses a young child may stop wearing mourning far quicker than a widow for a husband. Other mothers (particularly those who have other young children) go directly to 2nd mourning.
There are degrees of mourning. First mourning is absolute black, no color anywhere. The period of first mourning for a husband is prescribed, but for other family members it is at the discretion of the wearer. It would be possible to wear first mourning for only a few days for a sister, for example. Mourning fabrics include ‘crepe de chine, georgetteer, chiffon, grosgrain, peau de soie, dull finish charmeause and taffeta, and all plain woolen materials’. ‘Uncut velvet is as deep mourning as crepe, but cut velvet is not mourning at all! Nor is satin or lace…..Fancy weaves in stockings are not mourning, nor is bright jet or silver.’ ‘People in second mourning wear all combinations of black and white as well as clothes of gray and mauve.’
A widow must wear a veil, but not if she is in any place of public amusement, at which time she leaves her veil at home. She might adhere to tradition and wear a short veil over her face for 3 months, and the long veil down her back for ‘2 years at least’….or she might abandon the short veil immediately after the funeral.
The young widow should wear mourning for 2 years. However, as Emily notes, the combination of her youth and the mourning often inspired men to attempt to console her. <G> In that case, she must avoid all courtship for 1 year, at which time she could take off mourning altogther and start courting. No word about what happens to a young widow who wants to look for #2 after a year, but no man has yet volunteered to console her. I guess she continues to look ‘utterly captivating’ in her weeds until one shows up. <G>
Men, OTOH, wear mourning by wearing a black armband on their left arms, and by wearing only white shirts (no colored shirts). A black hatband is also worn. One reason men get off easy is that a man’s suit cannot be overdyed black, without destroying the tailoring of it, and therefore a man would have to buy all new suits. This would take time, and be a frivilous expense.
So, for the idea of mourning vs. morning:
When you consider how often a woman had to enter mourning for someone (it being her obligation starting while she was still in grade school!), it makes sense that every woman would have mourning in her wardrobe at all times. The black crepe had to be donned at a moment’s notice, and worn for months, so it makes sense that she would want to keep it nice. Second mourning, OTOH, never happened suddenly: you had plenty of time during deepest mourning to be making your dresses up in mourning prints. Therefore, it was practical to wear them out, and make more as needed, so when they started looking shabby, you could wear them for housecleaning. I’m also guessing that after a year or so in crepe, women in second mourning were finding that their grief had lifted enough that they cared if they were fashionable or not, so that while wearing a crepe dress that was 10 or more years out of style didn’t matter much, they did want second mourning to be in the latest style, which meant that wearing out and using up old second mourning dresses was a good idea.
Admittedly, this book is 20th century, but there’s nothing in it about alternating between deepest mourning and second mourning. It’s really quite plain: solid black at first, then mixtures. Since Emily repeatedly refers to old customs, I suspect, however, that the late 19th century went by the same rules. So mourning prints were worn after the solid black had been packed away, rather than wearing crepe and mourning prints alternately. As for ‘morning’ vs. ‘mourning’, I suspect that at the time, nobody confused them! It may be a confusion that’s arisen only amoung modern folks, who weren’t trained to the rules of mourning. Sort of like ‘iced tea’ versus ‘ice tea’: the former makes a LOT more sense, gramatically, but the latter is popular among people who aren’t thinking about the origin of the phrase. Women had ‘morning’ dresses– that is, dresses that were modestly cut, of simple fabric, and probably of colored prints– and ‘evening gowns’, but I’ll bet that at the time, ‘mourning dresses’ and ‘morning dresses’ were instantly seen as different breeds of cats to the women who wore them.
Jocelyn
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 17:41:42 +0100 | From: “Bob Mills” <decision [at] tigger [dot] jvnc [dot] net
In addition to the show listed below that a list member sent to QHL, I just picked up a Philadelphia Magazine at the library and noticed another show.
African American Museum
Stitches and Stories
701 Arch St (in the downtown area)
215-574-0380
Through October 26. Call for more info. The exhibit listing mentioned tying the Afro-American quilts to influences of Amish, etc. On a personal note, I am thrilled that a quilt of mine was just accepted to be in the Pennsylvania National Quilt Exhibition, in the greater Philadelphia area. The show is worth a drive, is easy to get to from the PA Turnpike and runs Sept 17th-20th.
Since I have never entered a judged show or even had one of my quilts hung in exhibit, I am slightly intimidated by the whole process but I also feel honored.
Look for my quilt if you go. It is in yellows and blues and is called ‘Golden Yarrow.’
Jan Drechsler in NJ
From a previous listing:
“Blending the Old and the New”
An Exhibition of 18 Quilts Incorporating
Antique Blocks by Paul D. Pilgrim
The exhibit runs through August 27 at The Paley Design Center
4200 Henry Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19144 phone: 215 – 951-2860
Free admission
Gift shop
Paley Design Center is part of the
Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science.
The Center is located across the street from the Main Campus – has its own parking lot.
Lunch can be found in some of the trendy places in nearby Manayunk.
Worth seeing!
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:51:55 EDT | From: Kittencat3 [at] aol [dot] com
To add to what Emily Post’s old Ettiquette said (I have that edition myself!): Dark red or maroon was also a color of deep mourning in Victorian times, at least in New England. I seem to recall that it was considered appropriate for wear by in-laws of the deceased. This information came from a seminar I attended at Mystic Seaport back in the early 90’s (either 90 or 91), so they probably still have information in their archives. www.mysticseaport.org
Lisa Evans
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:35:14 -0700 | From: Anne Scott <nzquilter [at] xtra [dot] co [dot] nz
Several years ago I published an article about a linen quilt which is in the collection of a museum in Nelson, New Zealand.
Although it did not have the complete provenance, some information was provided by the donor in the 1970’s. Sadly the museum records are less than complete and the donor has since died.
Provisionally dated 1750, this coverlet (quilted at 1 cm centres in straight lines, no batting) was constructed by a Mrs Francis Cleland who originally spun the linen for the background fabric herself in 1746. Hailing from Scotland, the Cleland family emigrated to Ireland in 1703-4 and built Stormont Castle, Belfast, now home of the Irish Prime Minister. The quilt is hand appliqued with a central motif of hearts, eight-pointed stars and circles, all cut from single pieces of the same cotton fabric. Other fabrics used include chintzes and shirtings.
My understanding is that applique was at this time considered “superior” to pieced work and that this was possibly a “best” quilt. It’s in remarkably good condition which could perhaps support this theory. Anyone else heard of applique vs piecing theory?
Maybe, given the hearts, it was made as a bridal quilt? The borders include diamonds, stripes, stars and squares on point. And it is large – 234 cm x 427 cm.
We do not have many old quilts here, however those we have were brought out with early settlers, largely from the United Kingdom, and are well preserved.
I read with longing about all the antique quilts members of this list discover. I have never, in five years of searching found an old quilt for sale in New Zealand and I ask everywhere I go.
Anne Scott
Editor & Publisher
New Zealand QUILTER magazine
Wellington, New Zealand
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:09:18 EDT | From: Tmauvlus [at] aol [dot] com
Hi all, I have two quick comments to make about the linen quilts. First, many people do not know that some of Marie Webster’s very famous early pastel quilts were made with linen. Just a bit of trivia. (And these were applique!
How did she get the edges to stay under??)
Also, in using vintage textiles in my quilting, I recently used a linen dishtowel printed with a wonderful eagle for the center of a quilt. The hand quilting stitch was completely lost.
The linen threads were heavier than the cotton, but not as tightly woven, and the quilting thread just squatted down and disappeared!
Teddy
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:59:40 +0800 | From: Con Van Maanen <convan [at] ozemail [dot] com [dot] au
Dear Jocelyn,
I really enjoyed your email on mourning prints. It’s made me think that there is a lot of quilt history out there in books other than quilt or history books. Really the social history is what is so interesting. How people lived, related, what was important in their lives etc. Makes you shudder to think what future generations might think of us. I’m wondering what this 1924 Blue Book is exactly, a sort of etiquette book – showing my ignorance here. I already collect old sewing books so this may end up being a costly diversion. Anyway, Jocelyn thanks once again for the post. Roberta.
cool but very pleasant Perth, Western Australia.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:08:52 EDT | From: Baglady111 [at] aol [dot] com
My Feedsack Club members are clamoring for a west coast get together…may as well look at the center of the state..I’m looking for a nice hotel/motel with some nice shopping tossed in..Our east coast convention site is in Lancaster, Pa..so if anyone in CA knows what THAT area is like…..what is comparable? please email me privately..and non-members who have always wanted to know about feedsacks..plus we deal in all vintage fabrics, as well as new..are welcome too..Jane <baglady111 [at] aol [dot] com>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:45:36 EDT | From: BPack55294 [at] aol [dot] com
Ever heard of this organization: S.W.E.A.T. ???
It is the Society of Workers in Early Arts & Trades!!! If anyone has information on this group and/or a web site address, please pass it along to me. Rumor has it that they do scholarly research into arts, skills, methods, etc. which are in danger of dying out, and then put their research into practice. (Hmmmm . . . sounds a bit familiar, ay?) Thanks for any help which can be rendered this query!
Be blessed, bets
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:31:09 -0400 | From: “Kelchner, Alan” <Alan.Kelchner [at] stdreg [dot] com>
Jocelyn, thanks for your note on mourning – much more complete than I was going to post (more detailed?). Women of the Victorian era (which spans Victoria’s reign, beginning in the 1840’s (? not good with exact dates), thru the start of this century. What Jocelyn termed second mourning is the same as half-mourning – in half/second mourning the color rules loosened (grays, browns, dull lavender….). There were also accessories made especially for the mourning woman. Several years ago I bought a small box of straight pins, probably from the last quarter of the past century. Mourning pins ! They have black glass heads, and the shafts are colored black (not paint). The box is black also. As I figure it, with the lack of fastening options in the last century, these were made to help keep those extravagant inventions called dresses closed (hey, they had a thing against visible ankles, so gaps at the breast would have sent people into the stratosphere!).
Alan
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:44:11 -0400 | From: “Phyllis Twigg” <ptwigg [at] radix [dot] net
When you see zig zag stitching on an old quilt, what does that tell you about the age of the quilt ? When were zig zag machines invented ? When did they come into poplular use ? In a quilt I’ve recently seen the zig zag stitching appears to have been done later in an effort to reinforce the quilt as well as be decorative.
Thanks !
Phyllis Twigg
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:52:05 EDT | From: Feathrwate [at] aol [dot] com
One more thing I read about the mourning grays, which are really black-on- whites, read as gray: I read that this country so admired Queen Victoria, that when she went into mourning for her Prince Albert, that many women followed suit in their choices of fabrics.
Linda
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:05:26 +0000 | From: Jocelyn <jocelynm [at] sw1 [dot] socwel [dot] ukans [dot] edu>
> When you see zig zag stitching on an old quilt, what does that tell you about the age of the quilt ? When were zig zag machines invented ? When did they come into poplular use ?
Phyllis,
Someone here will probably know exactly, but I’ve been told that machine zigzag DID exist in the 19th century, and isn’t a reliable clue to the date of the quilt.
Jocelyn
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:16:14 +0000 | From: Jocelyn <jocelynm [at] sw1 [dot] socwel [dot] ukans [dot] edu
> I’m wondering what this 1924 Blue Book is exactly, a sort of etiquette book – showing my ignorance here.
Roberta,
Not at all!
Emily Post was THE arbiter of polite society of her day. She was unique among etiquette book writers, in that she wrote about the high society folks of her day, giving them pseudonyms like, the Gildings, the Oldnames, the Newlyweds, etc. High society wanted to read the book not only to find out what ‘to do’, but also to try to guess who the Gildings really were. <G> Emily Post was pleased to lecture not only the high society but average folks on ‘the good life’. Her book is a real gem, including things like the number of linen sheets a properly-trousseaued bride would have (6 dozen, if I remember correctly!) and how many servants it takes to serve a dinner party (at least 2. If you only have 1, you must give luncheons only, until you can afford a second!) You learn such interesting tidbits as ‘only a vulgarian would employ a butler with a moustache’. <G> The book’s title is ETIQUETTE, but it was called the Blue Book because for so many years, it was such an essential for anyone who had a desire to travel in society, that it was identifiable by color alone.
Emily’s grand-daughter-in-law, Elizabeth, continues the family dynasty, and is the current author of the Post Etiquette book.
Jocelyn
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:53:10 -0700 | From: arlenegg [at] icanect [dot] net
> (hey, they had a thing against visible ankles, so gaps at the breast would have sent people into the stratosphere!).
Alan, I beg to differ. I’m not an expert, but have seen many pictures of Victorian fashion with the necklines cut very low. Also, it seems I read somewhere that generally speaking, when hemlines were high, so were necklines, and low hemlines accompanied low necklines.
Arlene
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:05:05 +0400 | From: Xenia Cord <xecord [at] netusa1 [dot] net
Apropos of our discussion on mourning prints, Linda asked about the term “widow’s weeds.” My dictionary says the term “weed” is from old high German and from Angle-Saxon, relating to a term that describes both weaving and a form of linen cloth. No explanation on how it came to refer specifically to black garments worn by widows, and black woven armbands or hatbands worn by men.
Xenia
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:05:03 EDT | From: SAERoy [at] aol [dot] com
<< When you see zig zag stitching on an old quilt, what does that tell you about the age of the quilt ? When were zig zag machines invented ? When did they come into popular use ? >>
My husband has a commercial sewing machine that does zig zag stitching from 1892. We understand that some of the flags that were made around that time can be found with zig zag stitching.
As for when it became readily available for home use, we’re not sure. The earliest zig zag machine for home use we have is the Singer 206 which was first made around 1952.
Sharon
Ft. Worth, TX
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:43:08 -0500 | From: Swede <kittyboxers [at] toledolink [dot] com>
According to Janice Saunders’ book, “Speed Sewing”, Van Nostrand Reinhold Co, Inc. NY, 1982. In Chapter 1 on Sewing Machine History, she says:
“As early as 1882, John Kaiser developed the first zigzag machine stitch which opened a new world of sewing possibilities. This innovation, however, only became commonly available on domestic sewing machines with the wide-spread use of synthetic fabrics in the mid-1940’s. Although the zigzag stitch was designed to save time, it was not used as much as it could have been for decorative work and mending, which started inventors thinking once again.”
Hope this helps.
Annastina
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:44:10 -0400 | From: Elizabeth Kurella <ekurella [at] accn [dot] org>
Some time ago, I tried researching what stitches were done on sewing machines by what date. There were so many so fast my mind was boggled and I gave up.
There are several books out on the history of the sewing machine.
Here are the ones at my local library:
Brandon, Ruth
Capitalist Romance, Singer and the Sewing Machine
Cooper, Grce Rogers
Invention of the Sewing Machine
Ewers, William
Sincere’s History of the Sewing Machine Sincere Press 1970
One of them, I think it might have been Sincere’s History, had a table of stitches machines were capable of. I seem to remember that by 1860, there were at least 50 or more types of stitches machines were able to do.
Anyone interested might get a copy of Sincere’s history. Fascinating.
Elizabeth on the Lake in Michigan ekurella [at] accn [dot] org
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:44:07 EDT | From: QuiltFixer [at] aol [dot] com
We recently had some information from our members on redwork including a web page reference. I wish I had kept all of it as I just received a redwork comforter from 1800’s. If any of you can spare me the time please send information to my private e-mail QuiltFixer [at] aol [dot] com. I always seem to save the things I end up not needing and not what I am going to need the next week!
🙂
Toni B.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:07:37 EDT | From: Kittencat3 [at] aol [dot] com
Low cut Victorian necklines were for evening wear. A respectable woman would no more think of wearing a plunging neckline during the day than her modern counterpart would wear a tube top to a business meeting. The only time in European history that I can recall where low cut necklines were acceptable in the day prior to our own (and today it’s only acceptable for certain ages and circumstances) was the Empire period, roughly from the French Revolution to just after the Napoleonic Wars.
Contrary to what you see in the movies, medieval and Renaissance women usually did *not* show off their cleavages, and costumes were *not* cut to emphasize the bust; the first corsets were designed to flatten breasts, not enhance them. Visible cleavage was the sign of a low class, slatternly type, not an aristocrat or wealthy bourgeois.
Lisa Evans
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:19:14 +0930 | From: Karen Bush <Birdsong [at] worldnet [dot] att [dot] net
Karen Bush wrote:
> Well, I’m way behind, again, and just now reading the last few digests, and you’re on one of my favorite topics, and I was missing out! Thank you all for this information on the ethics of mourning,etc.
I have a question, Where did the Black dye come from that the women
> used for their mourning clothes? I Know a Lot of women had to dye their clothes, fabrics,etc, for mourning. They didn’t just go out and buy a wardrobe, so, what did they use for black? I know I can pick up a box of Rit, but, there’s no way to make a good solid black, I end up buying it. Just wondering.
I was reading one of my books, a diary fo a Pioneer woman, that’s not
> the title, and she had lost a baby daughter, she was stirring a pot on the outside fireplace with her dress in it for the funeral. She added other family member’s clothes so that they would have the appropriate black. But, it doesn’t say WHAT she used. Walnuts, I wouldn’t think would be nearly dark enough.
And, as far as the ‘prints’ used in the Second/half mourning: Were they
> ‘allowed’ to wear prints even if it Was gray or black? Were these formerly a different color dyed for the half mourning? I’m sure that the “lower income” people were ‘allowed’ or just didn’t/couldn’t follow the conventions of the ‘upper class’ on this.
I have some wonderful reproduction “half-mourning” prints, and always
> wondered. These are a soft gray print, with lighter gray background, or the muddied lavendars…I just have a feeling these came about from the people ‘over-dying’ a dark stain of some kind over existing prints. ?? kb
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:41:26 EDT | From: BPack55294 [at] aol [dot] com
In a message dated 98-08-22 23:09:26 EDT, Kittencat3 [at] aol [dot] com writes: << medieval and Renaissance women usually did *not* show off their cleavages >>
I agree on the Medieval women, except that the Gates of Hell ala “sideless surcoats” have been construed from church writings to have caused such a row because the UNDERGOWN was laced so loosely at the sides that others could see the flanks of the wearer from between the lacings. Regarding Renaissance women–take a gander at Tudor and Elizabethan bodices in portraits and at the existing remnants of gowns from this period. In the Elizabethan period, a married woman had a “closed” chimese, but unmarried women of the upper class and nobility opened their chimeses in an inverted V, e.g. closed at the nect but opened where the bodice began, exposing significant cleavage. Throughout time, various body parts of men or women have been displayed or hidden depending upon fashion. Often when a fashion was “forbidden”, this meant that people were wearing it. One of the most humorous developments of this kind was the stuffed/padded cod piece, which originally was an item of modesty to deal with that problems of “what do we do with these hose where they are supposed to meet,” but it ended up as an absurd expression of male chauvinism. 😉 Another humorous development was the wimple of Queen Eleanor, wife of Henry II. Supposedly she actually adopted this fashion out of vanity to hide the double chin which was making her look so much the senior of King Henry. The populace and church supposedly latched onto it, as the EAR had become a sex object. WHY the ear? A myth had developed (WHO KNOWS where these things start) that the Immaculate Conception had occurred through Mary’s EAR, thus it was deemed appropriate for women to cover their ears . . . while they walked around with naked flanks when donning the Gates of Hell garments of the same era. (Think of it as wearing a cowl neck sweater and a micro-mini skirt, or a dress to the floor with a cellophane bodice.) It is indeed the wise woman who dresses for health and comfort and avoids the hazards of fashion!
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:39:48 -0400 | From: The Garretts <bgarrett [at] fast [dot] net
I just finished a book by Linda K. Hubalek — Trail of Thread: Historical Letters 1854-1855. It is described as being letters sent back to Kentucky by a relative who moves to Kansas Territory by covered wagon. There is a statement in the book that I am curious about — since I know nothing about dying, I am asking — is it fact or fiction.
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:18:20 EDT | From: PrairMoon [at] aol [dot] com
This term refers to the bizarre mixture of wild ingredients which could be used to create the various black dyes a widow would cook up to dye her wardrobe. We’ve all seen some of these terrifyingly toxic-sounding recipes, some of which include plants which would have undoubtedly been forgaged from the wild, hence the expression, widow’s “weeds”!
Jane Nehring
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:01:20 EDT | From: Tmauvlus [at] aol [dot] com
<<t he New Orleans sugar we buy in cones that resemble pointed hats. They are molded >> Barb, I can’t testify about the dye, but I do know sugar came in cones – Hence the quilt pattern, “Sugar Loaf”, a triangular shape like an upside-down cone.
Teddy
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:05:56 -0500 | From: teresa [at] execpc [dot] com
There is a kind of sugar you can buy in Mexico, and Mexican groceries here in the US that sounds about the same, it is called pilloncillo (little pillow).
Teresa (Lopez)
