November 4 - 6, 1999 - QuiltHistory

Oral History & Documentation, Quilt Dating, Regional Quilt History, Restoration & Conservation

These restored messages come from the Quilt History List, an online forum where quilt historians, collectors, researchers, appraisers, and enthusiasts discussed antique quilts and related textiles. The archive dates from 1996 through approximately 2016 and is being restored gradually. Sign up in the form at the bottom of the page if you want to know when a new page is added. Original spelling, opinions, formatting, and inactive links may remain unchanged.

Primary topics of this QHL Digest:

“Hidden in Plain View” Quilt-Code Debate — An extended, multi-day debate over the controversial book’s claims about a quilt-based Underground Railroad code, including concerns about editorial changes to the original manuscript and calls to write the publisher.
Dating and Signing Quilts — Appraisers and quiltmakers share differing best practices for labeling a quilt with its start date, finish date, or both. (see the article on dating quilts)
Redwork Runner with Dutch Children — A member’s redwork piece depicting children in wooden clogs prompts discussion of whether the imagery is Dutch or Pennsylvania Dutch, and how that affects dating. (see the article on redwork and outline embroidery)
New Member Introduction and Quilt Care Questions — A new list member introduces herself, and members separately discuss dry-cleaning advice for wool quilts.
Rose Kretsinger Follow-Up — The previously anonymous source of the Rose Kretsinger eBay tip identifies herself and thanks the list for the interest.

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:27:26 EST | From: WileneSmth@

I’m having a very difficult time keeping quiet on this subject as I read the various posts because I’ve been privy to some “inside” info recently regarding the original manuscript of this book as it was BEFORE the publisher’s editor HACKED IT TO DEATH by removing MANY portions of it to make it into a “popular” book that “would sell” rather than the history book the authors intended it to be (along with lots of references, footnotes/endnotes, documentation, etc.) that would “not sell.” I understand, too, that the original manuscript included a detailed, WELL DOCUMENTED, history of the URR in Canada — important stuff that had never been gathered together before. << The problem is that even if Dobard and Tobin revised their book to more accurately examine the original narrative, the new version would never overcome the hype and appeal of the first. Laurel Horton What Laurel so eloquently says here is absolutely true, and we’ve all seen it happen many times. The damage is already done, but it’s the publisher and their editor who are responsible, and NOT the authors. (By the way, I don’t know, and have never met, either one of them.) These two people continue to be flamed for something they had no control over, while the people responsible are not (or are rarely) even mentioned. Every published writer knows, sometimes painfully, that what they wrote is NOT what gets into print (unless it’s a self-published work, and few can afford that). I know from experience how the change, addition, or omission of just one word can change the meaning of an entire sentence, or worse yet, paragraph. Another post in today’s list suggested writing National Geographic. How about a massive campaign ALSO writing the book’s publishers, quoting some of the great comments that have been posted on this list, and don’t forget Oprah, and NBC News, too. I’m really serious here. Remember what was accomplished with that toilet tissue commercial? And this is a MUCH bigger deal than mere toilet tissue and correcting and revising a commercial (while the original disappears into oblivion never to be seen again). We’re talking historical accuracy here, and the gross irresponsibility of the publisher in the name of big bucks. I think Oprah owes it to her audience, too. I missed seeing that show, but then, the book wasn’t out yet either at the time, so no one had a way to judge what was said on that show that day. –Wilene

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 00:28:32 EST | From: EllynLK@

First a disclaimer: I have not read “Hidden In Plain View” However, I’ve followed the recent discussions about it here rather closely. The lackluster quilting board on AOL often has people requesting information about “the Underground Railroad quilts.” I have a feeling that in the next couple of years, we’ll see a touching “based-on-a-true-story” TV movie popping up about a slave family saved by quilts or something!

My feelings (completely personal; I haven’t done any reading on this outside of our list): Perhaps homes on the UR hung out a quilt– any quilt– to indicate they were waystations. And like any good game of Telephone– a simple signal (perhaps hung over a certain yard item or in a certain way)
got talked about and the meaning became distorted or enlarged. Just my feelings.

It would be a good signal that wouldn’t draw undue attention. Of course, this theory doesn’t address rainy or snowy days! Those were good “escape” days when scents of the hunted persons would be masked. The book has captured the public imagination and has taken off. It will take time for that furor to die down. It’s hard to combat a person’s personal experience– and if people have read the book or heard the author, they HAVE a personal experience with the subject matter.

EXAMPLE: In 1985, Cher starred in a movie, “Mask,” about a boy with a severe facial deformity. I actually knew the boy. I would tell people what he was like. My success in conveying that depended on my words and the imaginations of my audience. But after the movie came out, I found my stories being rebutted with “No, it wasn’t that way. I saw Cher on the Zzzzmm Show and she said…” Well, Cher NEVER MET the kid. While I could appreciate her attempts for empathy, she wasn’t THERE.

My “feeble” memories could not combat the images people had of the film or their personal experience of seeing actor interviews about it. I was standing alone against the tide. But now, a few years later, I can again tell people about Rocky and not get Cher thrown in my face. I think after the book has gone through its cycle of popularity, it will again be possible to debate the role quilts may have played in the UR.

Speaking of quilts and African-Americans, what is the general consensus about

Gladys Marie Fry’s “Stitched From The Soul”– about quilts made by slaves or women who had been slaves? I found it a fascinating read. And did anyone catch that EXQUISITE folk quilt made by a Victorian African-American that was on Antiques Roadshow a couple of weeks ago?
That thing was AMAZING!

My congrats to Laura on her appearance on the HGTV show! Like someone else said, it was wonderful to put a face to the name! Just curious about the “bedspring” quilt, Laura– do you think it was an old and worn quilt that was relegated to bedspring duty– or did go under the springs and THEN become worn and torn? That woman was one wonderful enthusiastic client!
Did they shoot the entire appraisal live? Or were there retakes? (sorry, I work in television and I know how much “spontaneous” TV– isn’t!) I was also happy to put a face to Cindy Brick’s name. You guys just made me PROUD to be a quilter!

I have Phyllis George’s book– does anyone know if she a quilter or does she simply collect?
Enough rambling for the evening!
Lauri Klobas

Pacific Palisades, California where it is cool and cloudy near the ocean….

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 22:59:39 +0000 | From: Bobbie Aug <qwltpro@

Lauri,

I appraised a quilt that was made for Phyllis George a few years ago and I don’t believe she was a quiltmaker at that time.
Bobbie A. Aug

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:42:51 -0600 | From: Jennifer Perkins <qltrstore@

Thanks, Qlthist, for the info on Rose Kretsinger. Do you mind telling us who you are?
Jennifer in Iowa

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:04:21 +0100 | From: “Tilde Binger” <binger.hougaard@

Dear Laurel and all 🙂

First : Laurel, thank you for a Folklorists view on it. I have not read the book. Don’t feel comfortable about spending that kind of money on something which is – from everything I hear – not methodologically sound.

My first reserve when the book came out, was the seemingly blind acceptance of an oral tradition transmitted through a secondary source. I know there is a myth about oral tradition being accurate and faithful, but the few comparative studies that has been made in this area shows beyond any shadow of doubt that oral tradition is nothing of the sort. My basic book of reference re. Oral Tradition is A.B. Lord’s “The Singer of

Tales”, where he builds, not only on his own field studies, but on those of his predecessor, Milman Perry. Perry did field-studies in the 1930’es and Lord did the same, in the same area and – in some cases – using the same (oral) sources as Perry, but in the 1950’es. This study was intended for use within Homeric studies, but it is a marvellous case-story on the ways of Oral-tradition. The bottom line being, that even when a Singer (of orally transmitted heroic sagas couched in poetic form) claims to render a song “word for word”, the differences between a version sung at two different occasions is huge. An important aspect here is the poetic form, since it is another “myth” that poetry is transmitted much more faithfully than prose. The basic plot of the song is usually (but not always !) the same, the central characters might (!) be the same too, but the story can not – in our conception – be called “word for word” or even a vaguely precise rendition of the “same song”. What is identical from rendition to rendition is a number of stock phrases, ways to describe a fixed motif like “The Weapon”
or

“The Horse” or “The Heroine”. Anything beyond these standard phrases changed from day to day.

Building sound, scholarly research on Oral Tradition, no matter how fascinating, is simply not sound methodology. For it to be remotely relevant in the dept. of historical methodology, your informant needs to be a first-hand source, not a second or third-generation informant. Having a second- or third-generation informant, however, often makes for the emergence of a Good Story, and Good Stories have a tendency to take on a life on their own. It doesn’t really matter whether they are accurate or not, if they are Good Stories, they will be told and what is more, they will be believed.

A couple of years back, I taught a class on the History of Ancient Near East, and what hit me was how everyone tended toward liking the Good Stories of the written material from the area much more than the picture that emerged from sound archaeological work, work based on hard data rather than on stories (and the picture drawn from the two sets of data is incompatible). When the two did not agree, the tendency was to “bend” the hard (archaeological) data to fit the stories rather than vice versa. As an outsider who is blessedly free of the (added) racial issues that seem to be brought into the discussion of Hidden in Plain View, I can see the same mechanisms at work in these discussions. We like the story. We want to believe it. Too bad there doesn’t seem to be any kind of corroborative material.

Sorry to have been so long-winded. But it is really not a question of whether one likes or dislikes the conclusions of the book, it is a question of whether or not the book represents sound scholarship, and from what emerges in these discussions, it does not. I hope no-one feels insulted by this long post. Please feel free to flame me privately. Please don’t waste the space of the other list-members if you take offence. Take it out on me 🙂
Friendly greetings
Tilde in Copenhagen

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 05:49:09 -0500 | From: “Diane McGuire” <dianemcg@

QHL friends,

Here is the address for National Geographic Forum, their “letters to the editor” section. I hope we overwhelm them with our protests!
ngsforum@

Diane in southeastern Massachusetts where the air finally has a nip of winter.

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 06:59:46 EST | From: JQuilt@

“Quilts, Threads of our Heritage” will be on hgtv again thursday Nov.25 at
10 pm and friday nov 26 at 1 AM it really is worth seeing/taping jean laino

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:48:12 -0500 | From: “jawhite@” <jawhite@

I just have to say that if Professor Dobard’s intention was to “spur further investigation into the subject,” he could have done that with an article in Quilter’s Newsletter Magazine instead of going to the trouble of publishing a book.
Judy White

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:18:06 EST | From: CToczek@

Hi Everyone,

During my own browsing, I just found that signature quilt discussed a few days ago…the one with the 1859 block on a much later quilt? The picture shows the block..”aunt Salera 1859.” Could it be Aunt Salera was the oldest or most senior of the group and stitched her birth date? That would have put her into her 60-80’s by the time the quilt was made…….. And for those of you on the digest like me, this auction ends (ended) on the morning of the 5th, but I thought I’d like to throw my .02 in on the age question.
Carla
West Point

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:27:23 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

I was going to stay out of this discussion it’s been the old dead horse thing again, but I have to add a couple of coments.

We, rather my partner, Lisa Erlandson, did a rather lengthy review and commentary on the subject back in last Feb’s issue of the Vintage Quilt & Textile Society’s newsletter, as well as spent about 1/2 a day on the subject at Quilt College. Several VQTS members did additional research and offered up basically the same opinion. The “unusual” & sensational promos on Oprah……prohibiting him to actually discuss the book prior to it’s release…..the fact that they waited until the interview subject had passed away to publish the book……the fact that the information came from only one source, and in drips and drabs as if she were “leaking” highly sensitive information….. The numerous and soooo lengthy forwards which seem to be offering up explinations and justifications before one even got to the text….The use of new quilts that he had made as examples of quilts supposedly used in the UGRR…. and the fact that the styles that he chose did not fit the favored styles of the times…. and the list goes on.

Many of us on this list, even before his book came out, had already discussed the feesability of even using quilts as road signs (that dreaded black centered log cabin thread <G and thus the QHL log <VBG)and had collectivly come to the decision that it was highly unlikely…..especially when there has been no written documentation discovered to prove this, no diaries, journals or letters refering to quilts as roadsigns. I will say that the section on African art motifs was very interesting, but to say that string pieced quilts using bold, unmatched fabrics or strips and zig-zag designs was adapted from those motifs is a bit of a stretch. I have several utility quilts made by my grandmothers family from Central Texas that could pass for some I’ve seen claiming to be slave made….. As for me the book makes a very good doorstop.

I will be contacting National Geographic. My grandfather was on the board for many many years and would be horrified at the lack of research and investigation that was done prior to the release of the article. Hey, we got Northern to change their toilet paper ad……we could get NG to print a retraction, or a ton of letters to the editor at the very least!
Laura

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:06:35 -0800 | From: “Robins-Morris, Laura A” <lrobins@

I have not read the book nor seen the National Geographic article, but I was struck by one thing someone posted. She mentioned that the article said that the Monkey Wrench block told people to gather their tool and things and prepare to leave. Well, according to Webster’s dictionary, the term “Monkey

Wrench” is dated 1858. As I understand it, the Underground Railroad was most active *before* the Civil War, so it seems unlikely to me that they called a block “Monkey Wrench” during the 1850’s. And I question whether the term would have spread into common usage even by the early 1860s. So at least one of the book’s stories seems inconsistent with historical fact. Now I’d like to look into the other block names and check their dates.
Laura in Seattle

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:33:19 -0600 | From: “Renee Hills” <reneehills@

charset=”iso-8859-1″
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am so very disappointed regarding regarding “Hidden in Plain View.” I guess I just don’t what to think and am beginning to doubt any historical writings of any type. In the 50’s (this century) my grandmother shared with me her knowledge of history of quilting….and the underground railroad…..she was an educator. And according to everyone on this list she was wrong.

It is just like when I learned history in high school and then went to college. I guess you get the PG version in High School and the X-rated in College, eh?

I personally don’t want to lose the joy of quilting, which I fear is what may happen as a result of all this discussion.
What is truth?
Renee Hills

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:02:59 EST | From: QuiltFixer@

In a message dated 11/5/99 10:34:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, reneehills@ writes:
<< What is truth?

I think we may never know the “truth,” but it is important to keep on researching and keep an open mind. Because someone write or orally relates something does not make it so. Even if that person believes with all their heart that it is true. Don’t be discouraged, just keep open to new information and keep learning. That’s what this list is all about. Toni b.
QuiltFixer@
Redworkldy@ www/redworklady.com

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:18:35 EST | From: QuiltFixer@

I recently acquired a Redwork Runner that shows two children wearing wooden clogs (shoes). I have always associated wooden shoes with Dutch children, but these children appear to be early PA Dutch (German). Does anyone know anything about whether the early emigrants wore wooden shoes. I seem to remember a description somewhere about farm girls walking across the battlefield (Civil War) through blood in wooden shoes. Did I imagine that?
Any help appreciated! Toni B.
QuiltFixer@
Redworkldy@ www/redworklady.com

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 15:10:30 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

<qhl@
Subject: Re: QHL: Disappointed
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991105151030.0073d72c@
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=”us-ascii”
Renee,

The more we learn and study and are privy to old journals and diaries, the more we are all disappointed. When I first became enthralled with quilt history the “bible” was the book by Myron and Patsy Orlofsky. So many things that we believed to be fact have been proven to be romantic notions….just as someone else stated today, once repeated, and repeated, and repeated are assumed to be fact. Those of us doing this for 10 years or more have had to unlearn a lot that we were told at our Grandmothers knees…….

Just keep an open mind and a full roll of film in the camera!!!
Laura
At 12:33 PM 11/05/1999 -0600, Renee Hills wrote:

It is just like when I learned history in high school and then went to college. I guess you get the PG version in High School and the X-rated in
College, eh?

I personally don’t want to lose the joy of quilting, which I fear is what may happen as a result of all this discussion.
What is truth?
Renee Hills

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:18:22 -0500 | From: Sandy Boyette <sandy.boyette@

Do not let this discourage you on quilting. The best thing we can do as we make quilts is to document our quilt(s) as we are making them. This may even include a journal with pieces of the fabric used is the quilt and a picture of the completed quilt and even a picture of who we might have given it to. Also in the journal we can record what was going on in our life(s) as we were working on that particular quilt and why we chose the fabric we did. Another thing that is important to remember is to sign and date the quilt.
sandy in Ohio

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 15:17:21 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

Hi ya Toni…just a thought but how do these children look to be PA Dutch as opposed to just Dutch? I often have trouble telling what the children are doing much less their origin. Could these be patterns available following one of the Exhibitions? As with so many oriental designs in crazy quilts, patterns for embroidery depecting childern from around the world appear to surface after one of the Expositions or Worlds Fairs.
Laura
At 03:18 PM 11/05/1999 EST, QuiltFixer@ wrote:

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:51:23 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM@

On 4-NOV-1999 09:15:48.5 xecord said to JOCELYNM

If planned imperfection is done as a mark of humility, isn’t that action a kind of arrogance in itself? If so, it rather defeats the purpose.

Can we have some discussion on the concept of planned imperfections in quilts?
Xenia,

The first thought was once told to me by an Amish quilter, explaining why they do NOT deliberately put in mistakes. <G

As for how it got started…my thought is that women of the late 19th century were often educated in the Greek myths, including the myth about Arachnae, who invoked the wrath of Athena by trying to achieve perfection in weaving. I suspect that someone, upon discovering an accidental mistake, quoted the myth as a justification for not ripping it out and starting over.

I’m guessing that the myth has justified leaving in accidental mistakes, but I seriously doubt that anyone deliberately inspects a project for perfection, finds it, then deliberately adds a mistake! <G As for the Navajos’ ‘deliberate mistake’…it isn’t because they want to mar perfection to show humility. It’s because they believe that when you’re creating something, you can leave bits of your soul attached, and the

‘mistake’ is the exit route so those bits of your soul can escape the weaving and re-join you, rather than remaining trapped in the rug.
Jocelyn

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:59:29 +0000 | From: Bobbie Aug <qwltpro@

Renee,

The more I learn and study and am privy to old journals and diaries, the more facinated I am with the new informatiion and knowledge that I acquire.
The pass-along-type of storytelling history that sometimes is/was skewed (sp?)
is just that – a part of history. The sociology of quilters (mostly women)
is facinating to me. After all, history has been told through the ages with the teller’s reflection, but even this becomes part of history. What I don’t understand is why this would discourage you from being a quiltmaker? Make quilts today to document history – what we wear, our home decorating schemes, our political scene, recreational and theatrical popularity, what you most care about in this life, etc. Don’t dwell on the mistakes and customs of the past if you don’t choose to. Make quilts for the admiration of generations to come!
Bobbie Aug
Laura Hobby Syler wrote:
Renee,

Just keep an open mind and a full roll of film in the camera!!!
Laura

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:16:40 EST | From: QuiltFixer@

<< In my opinion, these children date to late 1800s and are not tied in with any exposition. They are very similar to the pieces that either came here from Germany, or a German Speaking country or were made by early emigrants.

Of course most of these early pieces had German language on them. The way the piece is made also ties in with these early Redwork pieces. The only unusual thing is that they are wearing wooden clogs, not exactly like the stereotype

Dutch Wood Shoes that were so popular in drawings and patterns of the 1920s.

Indeed, they may well be Hollanders, I have no way to say for sure. Just curious about those wooden shoes.
Toni B.
QuiltFixer@

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:26:31 -0800 | From: “Catherine Kypta” <vger@

Hello all you learned folks! I have to agree with those of you posting in about the “Hidden in Plain Sight” issue. I can’t tell you how many people have asked me in the last three months about that book and wanted to know if I had any of those “slave” quilts. It will take a long time (maybe an impossible task) to correct these perceptions.

I would like to ask if any of you have any “hands on” experience with laundering the wool double woven coverlets, and if so, what worked or do any of you have any advice. They’re wool, so I am thinking that people must have them dry cleaned, but dry cleaning makes me nervous! I have washed wool quilts successfully by keeping to the same temperature in both wash and rinse, but have 0 experience with wool coverlets. Any help would be most appreciated! You can post privately if you prefer, but others out there may want to have your expertise as well!! Thanks in advance, Catherine in
Sacramento

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:40:06 -0800 | From: Fiona Galvin <fiona101@

Dear Folks,

I am interested in the comments about how the publisher cut out footnotes and other kinds of historical or documentary information. Who published this book?

I am also curious where this information came from, since in my experience with academic history (admittedly only a part of the larger field of historical writing), no reputable publisher would purge a book of its academic value, essentially of its “proof,” in order to sell more books. That’s counter-intuitive, as historians won’t buy or assign as reading a book they believe to be poorly researched (except as an example of what not to do). Not to mention that a book which had endnotes would serve both purposes, as the casual reader could simply read through it, while the interested party could comb the endnotes to his/her heart’s content.

So is there more information about how that happened? And does anyone have the information about who the publisher is? Also, to the lady who was concerned about learning the truth and wondering what meaning quilting might have for her, I return to my earlier point: although it may not be true that slaves used quilts for the Underground Railroad, it is still true that the idea of quilting and the slave heritage is an important part of the tradition surrounding quilting, and therefore deserves some respect. You can still think of those stories from your mother and grandmother as part of your heritage, in that they can tell you what quilting meant to them, and therefore why they lovingly passed it on to you.

I learned quilting alone, not even with classes. I have often wished for a grandmother to show me how or tell me stories. I partake in the quilt culture created by women like your grandmother and am grateful for it, so to me, it doesn’t so much matter whether these things are true. I mean, their truth doesn’t provide the meaning in quilting (it does matter to me as a historical issue). Rather, they are part of my inheritance as an American and a woman and a quilter, and they tell me that to my foremothers, quilts were powerful symbols which were believed to be capable of great things.
Thanks,
Fiona

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 23:25:26 -0600 | From: Karen Bush <Birdsong@

Renee- I understand your feelings about hearing a rubuttal on what you were taught about URR…and I think everybody that has reviewed the book, or any other research into quilts will agree….ask 2 people and get 3 answers. I agree with whoever was talking about publishers. I’m SURE the book that was Written, had NOTHING to do with the book that was published. Just think of how many books we’ve read, the movie comes out and BLAH!!!! So, take heart, and NO….NOTHING will take the joy of quilting and quilts away from me! Just like to learn the facts. the folklore is the FUN of the history,…the facts, are,..well, facts…(it’s late, can’t find my words)

And Sally,….you find the vintage quilts on ebay by :
Collectibles

Vintage/Textiles….OR, faster is going to Quilt Gallery. I’ve already written to Ebay to ask them to put a SEPARATE category in for quilting books. That list of books goes on Forever when you’re looking for QUILTS! ….:) kb
—
Ebay Seller, User name: karenbush-

http://www.idahoquilt.com “Quilt As Desired” the book of Basics and Beyond of Hand Quilting…,

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 00:59:29 -0600 | From: Jennifer Perkins <qltrstore@

Toni,

My dad is German Mennonite, his great-grandparents emmigrated from Russia to Kansas, through Holland, I think. They originated in Holland, then went to Prussia (Northwestern Germany), and then on to Russia-every move being made to avoid being drafted into military service as they were pacifists. We have a pair of wooden shoes that came over with them-not sure how old they are and if they were purchased just before coming over in the mid-1800’s or if they date from way way back-I suspect they are more mid-1800’s. If our family has them, I suspect others do, too! Good luck with the research-let us know what you find!
Jennifer in Iowa

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:13:46 -0500 | From: “Dee Stark” <dee@

Bobbie mentioned:

The more I learn and study and am privy to old journals and diaries, the more facinated I am with the new informatiion and knowledge that I acquire I’m new to the historical research field, and am wondering how you gain access to diaries and journals if they are not previously published? Do you inquire at local historical societies? Is there a way that they are cataloged with what kind of subject matter they cover? When citing them as reference, what kind of citation information is generally looked for by editors?
dee dee@

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 07:35:14 -0500 | From: “Barbara J. Moore” <doxymom@

Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to this list, and haven’t posted much, but here goes. I’ve been making a quilt for my 13 yr. old daughter for almost 4 yrs. It’s a simple dark and light post card design…actually my first big quilt (king-size), and she loves it. The news is that is almost done. 🙂 Someone suggested I save the last few stitches for January 1, 2000, because dating the quilt on the first day of the new millennium would make it more special and valuable in the long run.

I thought that sounded like a great idea, but my husband feels that it might be even more special if it’s dated in the 1900’s instead…something that can never happen again once we hit 2000.
I do have a choice here…what do you think?
Please post to the list instead of privately…
Thanks,
Barbara in NJ
*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*
Barbara J. Moore doxymom@
*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 06:56:36 -0600 | From: “Schmidt” <brian_jen@

Barbara,

If I can remember when I began a quilt ;), I write both the beginning date *and* the completion date on the label. If the span between the two dates is lengthy, the label may embarass me that I didn’t finish the quilt lickety-split; but it shows I had the determination to get it done.
Finally.
Jennifer in KS
—–Original Message—–
From: Barbara J. Moore [doxymom@]
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:35 AM
To: QHL@
Subject: QHL: Dating a quilt
Someone suggested I save the last few stitches for January 1, 2000, because dating the quilt on the first day of the new millennium would make it more special and valuable in the long run.

I thought that sounded like a great idea, but my husband feels that it might be even more special if it’s dated in the 1900’s instead…something that can never happen again once we hit 2000.

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 08:30:47 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM@

I personally don’t want to lose the joy of quilting, which I fear is what may happen as a result of all this discussion.
What is truth?
Renee,

What is truth? That for decades, if not centuries, women have expressed their creativity in the medium of quilts.

Can we believe every story that’s told about quilts? No. But the quilts themselves, as they exist, testify to their importance to their makers. For example, take Theodocia Willis Barber. She married late (at 32) and had 7 children over the next 15 years. Her husband was a farmer, and they lived in a house without indoor plumbing. Theodocia quilted because they needed the covers to stay warm because the house wasn’t insulated at all- they didn’t even have interior walls, just the clapboard siding. BUT…her quilts, made from the scraps left over from sewing for the family, were all laid out beautifully. Surely, some of the scraps were cut to fit the design. If quilting had been nothing more than bedcovers, Theodocia could have saved much time by sewing larger pieces together, higgledy-piggledy. Instead, she took the time to measure and cut the pieces, sew them together, and make quilts that continue to delight her descendents. This, amid pregnancies, childrearing, canning, cooking, washing, cleaning, and helping out around the farm. Think about busy- imagine Theodocia, 75 years ago. She’s less than

6 weeks from delivering her 5th child, and has a 3 and a half year old daughter, and sons 5 1/2, 6 1/2 and 8. And she’s just turned 40. PLENTY of motivation for her to do things the easiest way possible! But instead, she increased her work, to make quilts. And, within a year, she’ll be teaching that daughter to piece quilts.

Oral family history? You bet. Twelve years after Theodocia died, that daughter, Mary Jane Barber Martin, was teaching HER 8 year old daughter to quilt. That quilt became the World’s Oldest UFO, recently completed after over 70 years! Now, she’s working on the Second Oldest UFO, a quilt she pieced when she was 12. That quilt I started in 1965 was finished piecing in

1974, and bears all the hallmarks of a 1970s quilt (read, orange and green polyester). But it’s also a testimonial to Theodocia, and to three documented generations of quilters.

Every thing my mother has told me about how her mother quilted, I have been able to document in quilt project books about other quilters of the same region. I believe that my mother’s memories are accurate. I could even believe that my grandmother might have come up with an innovation that wasn’t common knowledge. BUT…if my mother’s stories had conflicted with other researchers, I would HAVE to consider the possibility that she had misremembered.

Narrative is cutting-edge stuff in my field (social work). We consider that the stories people tell, tell a truth over and above the actual factual events. Think about family stories, and if everyone agrees on the meaning. How about the time something embarrassing happened to someone? Does that person REALLY think it’s a hoot, or are they silenced by the laughter of their siblings and parents? Do they still seathe when the story is told, knowing that their feelings are being redefined and ignored? Narratives endure because they fit into what we want to believe about ourselves. I want to believe that I am part of a strong family tradition, that I have a connection with this grandmother who died before I was born. The meaning of quilting to Theodocia may or may not have been as I imagine it to be. I’ve built it on the stories of her daughter and daughters-in-law, who say they see Theodocia in me, especially when I do handwork. But the narrative would survive, even if it wouldn’t be recognizable to the woman who lived it, because it is of value to me.

Narratives have a metaphorical truth that takes precedence over literal truth. It’s up to you to decide if one kind of truth is more important to you than another….
Jocelyn

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:00:05 -0500 | From: “pepper cory” <pepcory@

I once asked an Amish quilter directly about that ‘only God is perfect so we always leave a mistake in our quilts’ theory. She smiled and said, “The first time I ever heard that it was from an English quilter!” (meaning a non-Amish quilter). Her take was that if a major mistake was caught when the quilt was still a top, it was worth taking out. Mind you, a ‘major mistake’ did not include color shifts, such as running out of one blue and substituting a near shade of the same color. That’s ‘using up’ and in the area of scrap quilts and quilts made for family (not for sale to the general public) that’s accepted as part of the process. If however a mistake escaped detection and was quilted in to the quilt and only discovered later, it was always left in. Taking out a mistake at that point would be worthless effort and more prideful. One more quilt myth bites the dust-
Pepper Cory

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:28:01 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

Karen,

The Meller & Elfers book, Textile Designs is a great one, but one that we has quilt and textile historians have not used since last year when Eileen Trestain’s book “Dating Fabrics: A Color Guide 1800-1960″ bacame available.

It is only 9×7, as opposed to the wonderful but coffee table size of the M&E book and has fabrics actual size, tho much smaller samples….she just had to cut back somewhere. You will notice the more that you use the M&E book that so many of the swatch samples are 75% actual size or even less. That was one of Eileen’s pet peevs about that book. Dating fabric is available from most quilt shops and is published by AQS……and is only a fraction of the weight of the M&E book. Which for carting around for appraisals and consultations is real important. If you saw the HGTV special Wed, that was the book that I was “using as reference material” to help date the “bed spring quilt”.
Laura
At 08:01 AM 11/06/1999 -0600, you wrote:

I just had a class on “reading the fine print” from Terry C.Thompson…and it was Great! A 3 hour class to cover YEARS of how to research and what to look for in quilts. Just a taste of it, and it SURE whet my appetite for MORE! WHY can’t I have a CHEAP hobby??? The book itself, that she uses a lot, was VERY expensive….just HAVE to have it one of these days. “Textile Designs” by Susan Meller…?? It was the first class that I’ve taken In my life of Any kind! Barbara Brackman, I thought, was supposed to be there,too, but wasn’t. That’s ok, Terry is a neat lady and we had a good time.

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:46:38 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

Barbara,

From an appraisers point of view, just sign and date *whenever you finish*.

We have the same situation looking at quilts started with 1890’s fabrics and finished up with 1910 fabrics……the quilt is dated by the newest fabric in the quilt, or the completion date if the quilt is *signed and dated*. …the provanance portion of the appraisal might read:
“constructed of fabrics dating circa 1890, signed and dated ‘From Mother with love Jan 1, 1900” the Circa date of the quilt is still 1900…a window of 10 years either side.

As to your DH’s question as to the added value of this century vs next……IMHO, really wont matter unless it is something really unusual, historically or politically significant or a new and unusual technique. I’m sure our ancestors were feeling the same sense of awe about the turning of the centuries, but in retrospect, and as far as value is concerned….one day later won’t add anything except time. Get that puppy finished so your daughter can enjoy it. Documenting that it was made *for her & by you* would add more to the value than waiting till Jan 1, 2000
Laura
AQS Certified Quilt Appraiser
At 07:35 AM 11/06/1999 -0500, Barbara J. Moore wrote:
Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to this list, and haven’t posted much, but here goes. I’ve been making a quilt for my 13 yr. old daughter for almost 4 yrs.
It’s a simple dark and light post card design…actually my first big quilt (king-size), and she loves it. The news is that is almost done. 🙂 Someone suggested I save the last few stitches for January 1, 2000, because dating the quilt on the first day of the new millennium would make it more special and valuable in the long run.

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 08:46:14 +0000 | From: Bobbie Aug <qwltpro@

Barbara, that’s a good question! As a quilt historian and appraiser, I tend to date quilts every which way, (by decades, by quarter century, etc.) but “Turn of the Century” is part of my vocabularly. Why not put a piece of millenium fabric in part of the binding and confuse the heck out of everyone! We will be documenting when these prints were first sold in the fabric stores. Some will be assuming that the quilt was made in 2000 or even more recently and those of us still around or with published documentation will know that you could buy 2K fabric last summer! Of course, if the maker did sign and date the quilt, that certainly helps…
Fun to think about. Thanks!
Bobbie Aug
From: QuiltFixer@
To: qltrstore@

Thanks for sharing the information on the wooden shoes in your family. I think you have given me a thread here to pursue. Studying Redwork, like everything else, leads to many doors and down many paths. I see now I must pursue some more history of early emigrants who were from Holland originally.

A note of humor here: I asked my brother-in-law who is from Holland and quite a bit younger than me about this. I didn’t think he would have anything to say, but he did. He said, “Of course we spoke German as well, we always have!” He sounded like I needed to go back to school and take world history and maybe he is right! 🙂 In any event he is going to ask his mother who is still alive about the wooden shoes. It would appear from what you have told me, that your ancestors spoke German as well.
Toni B.
quiltfixer@
Redworkldy@
www.redworklady.com

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:06:13 +0000 | From: Bobbie Aug <qwltpro@

Barbara,

I might also mention that I would also put on your label, when you started and when you finished. I like that information. When I examine vintage quilts, I wish they had their entire life story on the label! That is, IF there is a label! I like to know their region of the country, their age when they made the quilt and I know that often, quilts with extensive provenance are more difficult to find and therefore, more pricey to replace.

I, for one, do not know how the date completed (12/99 or 1/00) will affect value say 50 or 75 or 100 years from now. Wish I had that crystal ball…
Bobbie Aug
AQS Certified Quilt Appraiser

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:12:45 +0000 | From: Bobbie Aug <qwltpro@

Pepper,

In 1986 when I attended the 1st Great American Quilt Contest in New York City,

I had also made arrangements to rent a car and drive to Lancaster County and stay nearly a week with an Old Order Amish family. I, too, asked this same question of Sadie Stoltzfus and was told basically the same thing. To purposefully make a “mistake” would be a no-no. I also asked about quilting a heart into every quilt as I had heard sometime before and was given the same answer. Of course, I realize that tradition varies amongst sects, as the Ordnung is their “oral” bible and is interpreted in different ways across the country (and counties). This was Old Order Lancaster, PA.
Bobbie Aug

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 12:00:36 -0500 | From: “jawhite@”

Karen, I have that book and it’s wonderful. If you watch, you can find it at Borders Books or Barnes & Noble on sale every once in a while. I think it retails for about $65.00. Also, AQS used to carry it, and if you get five other people to buy their books with you, you can get a considerable discount. Sounds like a terrific workshop.
Judy White – Ct

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:29:38 -0500 | From: “Barbara J. Moore” <doxymom@

Hi everyone…

Since Bobbi mentions how she wishes there was more information on many quilts she examines, I’m copying an answer I received from Alex Anderson when I sent a message to her asking what information should be included when signing a quilt. I like her suggestion that “more is better.”
Here it is:

“Dear Barbara, There really isn’t an exact rule, except more information is always better….How about something like, to my daughter Sarah Sue Anderson, born xxxx with love , mom (your name) 1999. The cloth in this quilt is from your dresses dating X-X. that way the infor is given in a round about way. You could also give info on where you live, where she was born ect. Remember…more is better. Take care and congrats for understandiung the importance of documtation. Alex”
*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*
Barbara J. Moore doxymom@
*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*`*

Date: [date unknown] | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@

Hi folks,

I’ve had several requests for information as to ordering a copy of the tape and information on how to contact HGTV….. It will replay on Thursday Nov 25th at 10Pm Eastern and again at 1:00 AM on the 26th……for those of you that napped after Thanksgiving dinner and cant get to sleep. <G As to ordering, don’t have a clue if or when, but……
Call Jennifer Fair at HGTV 423-694-2700.

If anyone has a spare copy of the program guide with the article that Merikay wrote I’d love to have a copy. We can negotiate <G Laura
From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@
Barbara,

She’s so right. When I collect information from my clients I tell them I need the bacis journalism stuff..

who, what, when, where, why and how, plus any other information that they want to convey with the quilt like design source, DOB & DOD of quiltmaker, where they lived when the quilt was made, that kind of stuff is fun to know and also may help us identify regional styles in the future. I also try to include information that might get lost or transposed through oral translations like the name of the quilt (I hand ink my documentation labels for clients and do a little sketch of the block or design on the label for artwork. They really seem to love that touch) . I once had a client come for an appraisal. Told me that the quilt was pre-civil war, had the letter that his great-great grandmother wrote about it before she passed it down to his grandmother. Sounded wonderful. However, the quilt he brought was a

1930’s DWR……of course it was much prettier than the old faded 1850’s red and green applique and everyone for years had just assumed that it was the one that went with the letter……which wasn’t too descriptive other than …”this pretty quilt…..” I also put basic care instructions especially if I know that the quilt is going to a novice quilt collector.
They seem to love plastic so!
Laura

At 03:29 PM 11/06/1999 -0500, Barbara J. Moore wrote:
At 09:06 AM 11/6/99 +0000,
Bobbie Aug
AQS Certified Quilt Appraiser wrote:
Barbara,

Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 16:58:56 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM@

do any of you have any advice. They’re wool, so I am thinking that people must have them dry cleaned, but dry cleaning makes me nervous!
Catherine,

Wool is sheep HAIR, so laundering methods should take that into account.

Dry cleaning is NOT good for wool, just as you wouldn’t care to use dry-cleaning fluid to shampoo your own hair. The reason that wool manufacturers put ‘dry clean only’ on wool garments, is to reduce their liability if consumers toss them in the washing machine and ruin them. The main reason wool isn’t washable, is if the garment has tailoring details that won’t stand up to water-washing.

Use a gentle soap (suitable for washing hair) and if you want a nice soft finish, add some hair conditioner to the final rinse. Wool turns into felt when water, heat and agitation are present.
That’s why sheep can stand in the rain, and don’t mat up! No one is scrubbing away at their wool, and the rain isn’t hot.

Admittedly, I haven’t washed a wool coverlet, but I’ve washed a lot of wool sweaters. Use cool/cold water (so long as the water is colder than the sweater is when you put it into the water, you don’t have to use ICY water), agitate the WATER not the sweater (swish it around with your hand, leaving the sweater motionless, and make sure you have enough water and enough space in your washtub that the sweater isn’t all bunched up on itself), and carefully squeeze (don’t wring!) the water out before letting it drip-dry flat.

I’d wash a wool coverlet the same way I’d wash a quilt- in the bathtub, on a sheet, and carry it outdoors to dry flat on the sheet before trying to handle it.
Jocelyn

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:20:09 EST | From: Qlthist@

I’m sorry about not signing my name to the Rose Kretsinger information but it was the first I had ventured into this “new world”. Also the date of my last visit with Mary kretsinger and Emporia was a trip I made with Bettina Havig in 1986 instead of 1981.
Joyce Gross, Petaluma, CA 94952

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:26:41 -0500 | From: “Phyllis Twigg” <ptwigg@

<doxymom@
Barbara,

Save the last few stitches for New Year’s Eve and take the very last stitch at 11:59 p.m. (not midnight) and call it the last quilt of 1999.
Phyllis Twigg

November 4 – 6, 1999

September 21 – 22, 2004

March 25 – 28, 2006

January 20 – 23, 2000

August 15 – 16, 2004

October 4 – 10, 1998

August 2 – 6, 1999

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