November 13 – 15, 1998
These restored messages come from the Quilt History List, an online forum where quilt historians, collectors, researchers, appraisers, and enthusiasts discussed antique quilts and related textiles. The archive dates from 1996 through approximately 2016 and is being restored gradually. Sign up in the form at the bottom of the page if you want to know when a new page is added. Original spelling, opinions, formatting, and inactive links may remain unchanged.
Primary topics of this QHL Digest:
- Underground Railroad Quilts Debate — An extended, substantive debate on whether quilts genuinely served as coded signals on the Underground Railroad, with members weighing oral history, folklore methodology, and the forthcoming ‘Hidden in Plain View’ book. (see the article on Underground Railroad quilts)
- Hidden in Plain View Book Anticipation — Members discuss the upcoming book by Dr. Dobard and Jacqueline Tobin about quilt codes and the Underground Railroad, with both excitement and calls for documented evidence.
- Marseilles Spreads — A thread on identifying, valuing, and appreciating Marseilles (whitework) spreads, with dealers and collectors sharing market observations.
- Simply Quilts Appearance Follow-up — A member thanks the list for support after appearing on the Simply Quilts TV program and describes the experience.
- Civil War Quilts Reference — Members recommend Barbara Brackman’s Civil War Quilts and other references as context for the Underground Railroad quilts discussion. (see the article on a Civil War quilt)
- Friendship Quilt Mystery — A member asks for help with a friendship quilt containing curious features that don’t match expected patterns.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:35:07 EST | From: JBQUILTOK [at] aol [dot] com
<< The author that they interviewed is a quilter (I loved his tackle box with all his notions in it.!) >> Guess I’m tired, but I just got this vision of an author storing his thoughts in a box! Then I realized it was talking about storing rotory cutters, thimbles & needles in a Bass Pro box like the one I use.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:23:44 EST | From: KareQuilt [at] aol [dot] com
Hello everyone, I didn’t see the Oprah show, byt my daughter in New Orleans sasy she taped it for me. Several months ago I heard Ray G. Dobard from Howard University here in D. C. speak at the Textile Museum about his own quilting, as well as his research into the underground railroad. He really didn’t give us substantive information about the quilts of the UGR that evening because (as he seems to have also stated on the Oprah show) of his contractual agreement with the publisher of his forth coming book not to divulge release the book”Hidden in Plain ViewThe Secret Story of Quilters and the Underground Railroad.” But he sure did “tease” us with hints. I got the impression that basically he is going to come out and claim that there WERE specific quilt patterns that WERE used as codes and messages. The book was due out in October, he little if it now has a Feb pub. to the controversy rather than really convince all parties that the his position has been convincingly argued and documented. As for me, I am eagerly awaiting the book. Karen Alexander in Northern Virginia Press Secretary, The Quilters Hall of Fame (Marion, IN) AQSG member
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 | From: [from unknown]
Hi Kathy, Yes the book is called Hidden in Plain View The Secret Story of Quilts at the Underground Railroad It’s already on Amazon.com I gather (in fact I was just going to add it to my “bookstore” on my site Susan Druding Quilting Guide at the Mining Co. http://quilting.miningco.com Back to Charm QuiltsJinny Beyer tells the story in her The Scrap Look of ill children being give the “charm quilt” & thus being kept happily occupied trying to find the duplicate. She also tells of a groupd of children having a stall outside their house & charging to “find the duplicate”. My story is this – I have made several charm quilts (& they are great fun) & when I show them off I tell the duplicate story. Someone in the crowd finds “it” & often it’s not the one I did duplicate. I always say great! I haven’t had 2 persons find different “duplicates” at the same time yet. Audrey Cameron in England audrey.cameron [at] virgin [dot] net —
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:23:37 EST | From: Meredit300 [at] aol [dot] com
Would you believe that this morning I got only the address and not the message you sent….AOL got hung up somehow and when I finally got back to e- mail your message was gone. Can you re-send it? I suspect you sent address for snail mail. It is frustrating that this happens…and I can’t seem to retrieve it….Thanks. Meredith at Meredit [at] AOL [dot] com
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:41:02 EST | From: BrickWks1 [at] aol [dot] com
Hi all,
I double-checked, and the ‘postcard’ quilt mention comes from the same Terry Thompson article I referenced earlier from KANSAS QUILTS AND QUILTERS. Terry quotes someone as saying patches for these quilts were cut in the 50s. My to: p is, I’m pretty sure, late 40s and early 50s. (It came from the Kirks.) Mary Waller tells me she has seen a quilt in this style, though, from the 1870s, in one of her books.
So it may be the same old storya revisit to an old favorite. By the way, the 999+one reference to charm quilts that I saw was quoted in Cuesta Benberry’s QNM articles (#1), and is also part of Jinny Beyer’s discussion on charm patterns in THE SCRAP LOOK (EPM). A terrific book, with lots of great ideas.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:19:31 +0000 | From: Jocelyn <jocelynm [at] sw1 [dot] socwel [dot] ukans [dot] edu>
> The quilts were no more than a “road” sign. If I saw an arrow point N or S I would say this is how to go. There were many quilts along the way pointing a direction or giving information . I would also like to give the slaves some credit for knowing which way was N or S. They had a lot more knowledge than they are given credit for.
Debbie,
I don’t dispute the idea that quilts, among other household objects, were used as signals.
I DO question the stories that quilts were made in secret, and used as maps. This isn’t a judgment about the knowledge level of slaves. I have no doubt they could tell north and south. But if all a pattern indicated was ‘go north’, why make it at all? That’s a simple instruction, easily taught. A quilt with a row of flying geese wouldn’t convey a bit more information.
If I’m driving on the highway, ‘take I-70 to I-435, and then take the I-29 exit and keep going’ will get me from here to St. Joseph, MO. If I were going to try to walk there, I’d have to have lots more detail. I know it’s north and east, but I have no illusions that if I started off heading north and east by the sun, that I’d end up in St. Joe….at least not after walking only 80 miles. <G> I’d also need to know where to cross the Missouri and Kansas rivers. What I’m saying is that if you’re not sticking to the roads, as the slaves probably didn’t, you need an even MORE detailed map, not a less detailed one, which is why I don’t believe that any common pieced pattern could convey the detail necessary for going from the Deep South to Canada.
Jocelyn
Jocelynm [at] delphi [dot] com
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:41:13 EST | From: Qltldy10 [at] aol [dot] com
Hmm, let’s not jump to any conclusions about what the good Dr. has in the way of information. I just hope he has a story from a real person… if his grandmom knew someone who to: ld a story about one time, one quilt… or better yet, two families and one quilt pointing down the road, with a matching quilt to mark the right house…. then the myth is no longer a myth for me; it becomes reality. I don’t believe there were ever multitudes of quilts marking multitudes of trails for multitudes of families…. I just wait to hear the story of one family- which, according to rumor, the Dr. may very well have- I’ll be content to wait.
Beth in Maine qltldy10 [at] aol [dot] com
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:10:16 +0000 | From: Jocelyn <jocelynm [at] sw1 [dot] socwel [dot] ukans [dot] edu>
> Jocelyn, I imagine, as the stories go, that the quilts “pointing them in the right direction”.. meant, “Just down the road a piece”…I wouldn’t think a lot of mileage would have been the goal,…just from safe-house to safe-house. having said that, even though we HAVE talked about it,
Karen,
I agree with you that quilts were more likely than not used as a signal. It makes sense that everyday objects could be set in a particular location, and used as a signal, because it was a juxtaposition of the object and the location that served as a message. It could just as easily have been a lit lamp in a particular window, or flowerpot on the steps, or children’s to: ys under a tree…. anything that would not have rung a warning bell with a slavecatcher, because it seemed so ordinary.
However, I’ve read accounts that claimed that slaves laboriously made quilts as maps. That’s the one that I can’t buy….that you could create enough useful detail in any piecing pattern that would serve as a viable set of directions. A row of Flying Geese might look like a road heading north…but it wouldn’t give you clues about when you needed to turn west or east. If you included the pattern in the quilting design, you’d still have trouble with the scale. Does 8 quilting stitches mean a mile, or a mile and a quarter? It just seems to me that if you were going to bet your life, and the lives of your family, on making a map, you’d want a whole lot more detail than you’d ever be able to get from piecing a regular quilt pattern. And crazy quilts weren’t around yet…..
Jocelyn
Jocelynm [at] delphi [dot] com
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:45:28 PST | From: “Kim Heger” <kheger [at] hotmail [dot] com>
Yes, Cindy, I was also thinking about Barbara Brackman’s book CIVIL WAR QUILTS! I was fortunate enough to have had the opportunity this summer to attend a conference she was conducting, entitled “Quilts on the Kansas Frontier.” We brought up this to: pic, and she stressed that she bases her conclusions on written documentation such as diaries. She to: ld us that in all of her extensive research, she had never found conclusive evidence written in a diary or journal about quilts used as maps for slaves during the Civil War. However, she also pointed out the fact that when someone keeps a diary, they don’t always write down the common everyday things they do,(at this point, she mentioned she had never found documentation for the “Only God is perfect” mistake block–if it was an ordinary thing everybody did, why bother to write it down every time you did it) or in the case of quilts as maps for slaves, it might have been to: o secret to even write in the pages of a diary. I don’t know. I like the idea of there still being a mystery to solve…
Kim Heger southwest Kansas
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:16:56 -0700 | From: Sharon Harleman Tandy <harleman [at] micron [dot] net>
Hi QHLers,
Even though I am waiting for authenticated/documented examples of Underground Railroad quilts serving as maps (and I do believe in the UR!), it does seem that the stories I heard originally said that specific quilt patterns were hung *only to indicate a safe house.* This completely does away with the objections we’ve all had to using quilts to show direction, doesn’t it?
I agree with others in that we can continue the search, listen to and read differing opinions, and hope to know decisively someday. Sharon.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:02:18 EST | From: JQuilt [at] aol [dot] com
lest we forget the underground rr was a movement…not an individual thing…systems were set up…it wasn’t just one slave walking down the road looking for a quilt on a fence or clothesline…many quakers set up systems of “paths” to freedom the following is copied from an encyclopedia
******************************************************
Quaker traditions, aroused interest in abolitionism in the United States. The abolitionists differed from those of moderate antislavery feelings in that they called for an immediate end to slavery. The most extreme abolitionists denied the validity of any laws that recognized slavery as an institution; thus, they systematically violated the fugitive slave laws by organizing and operating the Underground Railroad, which concealed and transported runaway slaves to Canada. The activities and propaganda of the abolitionists, although discredited in conservative northern quarters and violently opposed in the South, made slavery a national issue.
Viewed as fanatics by the general public, the abolitionists were relatively few in number�only about 160,000 in the period 1833-40. Most were educated church people of middle-class New England or Quaker heritage. Support among the working and upper classes was minimal….
*************************
I would imagine there were many secret ways that indicated safe houses…that must have been changed constantly to avoid detection…
to this day if i were penniless and homeless and trying to get to home or somewhere special…..the first thing I would try to find is a Quaker Meeting House..
jean jquilt [at] aol [dot] com
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:03:57 -0700 | From: Sven Olsson <sven [at] pnc [dot] com [dot] au>
Hello All,
If you are interested in this subject: , look at the following site.
http://www.ugrr.org./
Lorraine in Oz
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:18:29 -0200 | From: susan silva <woody [at] ior [dot] com>
Greetings Ladies
I’m wondering if anyone has suggestions about something “very curious”. I purchased a friendship quilt and it is old (1850’s) A note that I have suggests some names that should be on the quilt, yet they are not there. The friendship block has about 25 blocks, and about 10 do not have signatures. I’m wondering if they faded, washed away, or whatever. A friend suggested that if I to: ok the quilt into a room where there was a black light, i would beable to see traces of hidden signatures, etc. I saw this method used on an old painting to show where restoration work was done, yet I am somewhat leary of any harm this black light exposure could do.Any ideas, feedback etc?
Thanks,
Susan in Spokane Wash.
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:34:35 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM [at] delphi [dot] com
On 13-NOV-1998 175622.0 Qltldy10 said to JOCELYNM
>the way of information. I just hope he has a story from a real person… if his grandmom knew someone who to: ld a story about one time, one quilt… or better yet, two families and one quilt pointing
Beth,
I’m still skeptical, without a primary source. I know that there have been several times when I’ve been brought up short by hearing the re-telling of a family legend…..sometimes by another family member, who remembers it quite differently, sometimes by the same person who originally to: ld me the story, but now it’s quite different than the way I remember it. My older sister and I occasionally marvel at how our parents tell stories about our childhoods that are quite different from how we remember it….even though she and I remember it exactly the same way!
If his grandmother had heard a story from someone, she would still be a couple of generations removed from the actual event. Even if she heard it from the original person…it would be an elderly person telling a story to a young child, at the very best. And then, that young child grew up, had children and grandchildren, and to: ld her grandson the story. That’s a lot of years, and several tellings, and a story could certainly change some in its details.
For example, I was sending Sharon pics of family quilts to use in her thesis defense. I to: ld her that one block was made from scraps from my grandmother’s dress. As I was preparing the documentation, it suddenly hit methe quiltmaker was my uncle’s mother-in-law, who lived in Oklahoma; my grandmother lived in Mississippi. Did it really make sense that in the height of the depression, the stepmother of a man in Oklahoma would send his mother-in-law scraps for quilting– especially since she was a quilter, to: o? I checked the story again…no, my mother said, what she’d meant by her story was that she remembered her mother having a dress out of that fabric…but that she was sure that my grandmother and my uncle’s mother-in-law had bought the yardages separately, in their own home states. If I hadn’t thought about it, I’d’ve passed the story down in the family that Eliza Clark made a quilt that included scraps given to her by Theodocia Barber….. and it would have been completely false.
Jocelyn
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:47:41 -0500 | From: Anthony Jones <ajones2 [at] tampabay [dot] rr [dot] com>
It was my understanding that quilts were used to signal when it was OK to approach safe-houses. Such signal flags would have been common. The underground railroad was an organized directed escape system. Slaves were “conducted” along it by trained conductors who knew all the safe houses, danger zones, and hiding places. Maps would have been unnecessary. But, signal flags vital.
Also, 19 century Americans would well have written in a diary that they had broken the law. Dairies were thought of differently then. They were personal and private refuges. There is no evidence that they would fear their dairies being siezed and used to prosecute. Many abolitionists kept detailed records of their illegal activities, that’s how we know they were abolitinists. (Remember, <all> their activities would have been illegal in the South.)
This is a fascinating thread. Thanks.
Anthony
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:14:40 -0500 | From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman [at] albany [dot] net>
I thank Kris for the opportunity and go-ahead to post this. It’s not altogether off topic, since quilts have traditionally been a canvas for making statements about social issues, politics etc.
Child Abuse Quilts
Revealing and Healing the Pain of Child Abuse
A group of on-line quilters have made quilts in response to child abuse, abuse prevention and violence against children.
Working in conjunction with Prevent Child Abuse New York, a state chapter of a national abuse prevention organization, it is our hope that these quilts will travel widely and be seen by many.
These powerful quilts are available for groups to display at events during 1999 and 2000.
There are approximately 25 quilts available, most of them smaller than 24 X 44″ with a few of them smaller than 44 X 48.” The quilts have a sleeve on the back to facilitate display. Statements by each artists will be provided.
We ask that you pay for shipping both ways, include the quilts under the group’s insurance and provide a secure display space for them The quilts touch on many areas of abuse – physical, sexual and verbal abuse, incest, abuse by clergy, and violence by children, as well as hope for the healing of victims of abuse.
The quilters hail from all over the United States and use many different techniques to make their statement against abuse.
Photos will be available soon, but for the moment, there is a web site with “sneak peek” scans of each quilt.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/whistler/218/caq1.html If you know of a possible venue for the display of these quilts, I hope you will contact me.
Mary Beth Goodman
Curator
[dot] net
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:22:32 -0500 (EST) | From: quiltsnbears [at] webtv [dot] net (Roberta Geanangel)
When I married for the first time in 1957 one of my prized possessions in my hope chest was a Quaker lace tablecloth. The lace design was outlined in a darker colored lace.
Roberta
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:49:51 -0600 (CST) | From: Phil & Lee Spanner <philspan [at] bucky [dot] win [dot] bright [dot] net>
>I’ve been reading about all of your thoughts on quilts used as signals for underground railroad escapes. Something we need to remember is that there very well may be written record of how slaves were transferred north, but that record was encoded for the safety of the family owning the safe house as well s the slaves.
Hi!
I really don’t know much about this subject, so this is just my .02 cents worth, but encoding could very well be true. From what I remember, this is how the song “The Twelve Days of Christmas” came about. It was a code to hide religious beliefs to protect worshipers.
However, I have read all these messages with interest. I wasn’t aware that the quilts were supposed to be actual maps. I had heard the story that the center color of the quilt was a message indicating a safe house for slaves to spend the night to eat and rest. Wouldn’t it make sense that the homeowners would give the directions they needed to proceed to the next safe house rather than try to stitch this all into a quilt.
Also, didn’t many of these groups of slaves have someone who was leading them. Wouldn’t they know where to go.
I also remember someone telling about how members of the family would remember stories differently from each other. This is what happens with stories that are not documented. Things get lost/change/added in translation. But, the foundation for the story is still there. So I would not be surprised that the quilts did have some meaning or message back then. I would only wonder how much the stories had been change since then. Oh well, I will get down off my soapbox now. I really find these stories and discussions interesting. Even if they can’t be proven, I like to hear about them.
Later.
Lee :^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ philspan [at] bucky [dot] win [dot] bright [dot] net
Visit the AniLee homepage at
http://www.win.bright.net/~philspan/anilee.html
Join our swaps, mysteries, and chat list
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:08:10 -0800 | From: Sally Ambrose <sally [at] televar [dot] com>
A first for me–I am a lurker coming out of hiding.
The underground RR post are wonderful! I was raised in a very small village in Ohio that was on the UGRR route. One of the safe sites was beneath the town City Hall. The area where the travelers were hidden was miniscule in size. The site was a favorite field trip for young students 100 years after the war.. We were all dumb founded that more than a small child could have hidden in that space for more than a few hours. The UGRR has been a fascination for years and yes, there were more sites in and around my little village and no one talked about them until long after the Civil War was ended. My great grandfather who fought in that war also hid those traveling North before the war.
RE: Black light usuage. There are some dangers to your person if you do not use the light appropriately. I suggest that you call a Fine Arts gallery or your museum and take the quilt to them for scanning. The lights are generally safe, but you do have to take practical precautions. Black lights are available from Radio Shack or Antique & Collectors Reproduction News., PO Box 12130, DesMoines, Iowa 50312-9403. Prices vary from $51.95 (or 3 for 43.00) up to $154.00 add shipping costs. The expensive one is a professional, cordless light.
Sally
QHL-Digest-request [at] cue [dot] com wrote:
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:03:57 -0700
> From: Sven Olsson <sven [at] pnc [dot] com [dot] au> To: qhl [at] cuenet [dot] com
> Subject: QHL: Underground Railroad Web Site
> Message-ID: <364E1A6D.7C0E [at] pnc [dot] com [dot] au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hello All,
> If you are interested in this subject, look at the following site.
> Lorraine in Oz
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:18:29 -0200
> From: susan silva <woody [at] ior [dot] com>
> To: QHL <QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com>
> Subject: QHL: (no subject)
> Message-ID: <364CCC55.1C65 [at] ior [dot] com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Greetings Ladies
> I’m wondering if anyone has suggestions about something “very curious”. I purchased a friendship quilt and it is old (1850’s) A note that I have suggests some names that should be on the quilt, yet they are not there. The friendship block has about 25 blocks, and about 10 do not have signatures. I’m wondering if they faded, washed away, or whatever. A friend suggested that if I took the quilt into a room where there was a black light, i would beable to see traces of hidden signatures, etc. I saw this method used on an old painting to show where restoration work was done, yet I am somewhat leary of any harm this black light exposure could do.Any ideas, feedback etc?
> Thanks,
> Susan in Spokane Wash.
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:34:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: JOCELYNM [at] delphi [dot] com
> To: Qltldy10 [at] aol [dot] com, QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com Subject: QHL: The Underground
> Message-id: <01J45OI7QLWY90SZP2 [at] delphi [dot] com> Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> On 13-NOV-1998 17:56:22.0 Qltldy10 said to JOCELYNM
>the way of information. I just hope he has a story from a real
>person… if his grandmom knew someone who told a story about one
>time, one quilt… or better yet, two families and one quilt pointing Beth,
I’m still skeptical, without a primary source. I know that there have
> been several times when I’ve been brought up short by hearing the re-telling of a family legend…..sometimes by another family member, who remembers it quite differently, sometimes by the same person who originally told me the story, but now it’s quite different than the way I remember it. My older sister and I occasionally marvel at how our parents tell stories about our childhoods that are quite different from how we remember it….even though she and I remember it exactly the same way!
If his grandmother had heard a story from someone, she would still be a
> couple of generations removed from the actual event. Even if she heard it from the original person…it would be an elderly person telling a story to a young child, at the very best. And then, that young child grew up, had children and grandchildren, and told her grandson the story. That’s a lot of years, and several tellings, and a story could certainly change some in its details.
For example, I was sending Sharon pics of family quilts to use in her
> thesis defense. I told her that one block was made from scraps from my grandmother’s dress. As I was preparing the documentation, it suddenly hit me: the quiltmaker was my uncle’s mother-in-law, who lived in Oklahoma; my grandmother lived in Mississippi. Did it really make sense that in the height of the depression, the stepmother of a man in Oklahoma would send his mother-in-law scraps for quilting– especially since she was a quilter, too? I checked the story again…no, my mother said, what she’d meant by her story was that she remembered her mother having a dress out of that fabric…but that she was sure that my grandmother and my uncle’s mother-in-law had bought the yardages separately, in their own home states. If I hadn’t thought about it, I’d’ve passed the story down in the family that Eliza Clark made a quilt that included scraps given to her by Theodocia Barber….. and it would have been completely false. Jocelyn
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:41:28 -0600
> From: “Sehoy L. Welshofer” <sw4quilt [at] bellsouth [dot] net> To: “QHL” <QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com>
> Subject: QHL: new book
> Message-ID: <000101be0fd4$7b473460$1e01a8c0 [at] patrick> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=”iso-8859-1″
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hidden In Plain View; The Secret Story Of Quilts And The Underground Railroad, by Tobin, Jacqueline (Preface By:Benberry, Cuesta Ray Joint Author:Dobard, Raymond), binding: hardcover, published: 11/1998, ISBN: 0385491379.
> Just checked on acses, my favorite book search source. Hidden in Plain View retails for $27.50 – you can buy it at A1Books USA for $22.45 which includes shipping.
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:23:15 EST
> From: Lalalawyr [at] aol [dot] com
> To: QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com
> Subject: QHL: Underground railroad
> Message-ID: <2161ad91.364dae73 [at] aol [dot] com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> In a message dated 98-11-13 16:50:39 EST, kheger [at] hotmail [dot] com writes:
> << she stressed that she bases her conclusions on written documentation such as diaries. She told us that in all of her extensive research, she had never found conclusive evidence written in a diary or journal about quilts used as maps for slaves during the Civil War…. in the case of quilts as maps for slaves, it might have been too secret to even write in the pages of a diary. >>
> With all due respect to Barbara Brackman, she may have been looking in the wrong direction for her research and her conclusions.
> If I’m recalling correctly from my history, it was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Certainly it was not customary or generally done. And those few slaves who could read and write would be unlikely to have the resources (paper, pen, ink) or the leisure time to keep a diary.
> And if the slaves didn’t keep diaries, who else would have? I think the only other candidates I can think of are slave owners and abolitionists.
> Obviously, the slave owners aren’t going to know about this, let alone write about it (assuming such “map quilts” existed). And since assisting escaping slaves was illegal, abolitionists are highly unlikely to have kept anything that could be used as evidence.
> So I’m not sure it is very likely that there would BE any diaries about slave quilts.
> But to give Ms. Brachman’s methods the benefit of the doubt – even if there were such diaries – we have to wonder how many got preserved, and how many were either lost or destroyed or simply have yet to be unearthed by a historian.
> Of course, an historian would look for such documentation – but I’m not sure it is accurate to infer from its lack.
> Melissa
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:22:28 EST
> From: Lalalawyr [at] aol [dot] com
> To: qhl [at] cuenet [dot] com
> Subject: Re: QHL: Quilts as maps
> Message-ID: <32b09495.364dae44 [at] aol [dot] com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> In a message dated 98-11-13 14:17:16 EST, jocelynm [at] sw1 [dot] socwel [dot] ukans [dot] edu writes:
> << What I’m saying is that if you’re not sticking to the roads, as the slaves probably didn’t, you need an even MORE detailed map, not a less detailed one, which is why I don’t believe that any common pieced pattern could convey the detail necessary for going from the Deep South to Canada. >>
> Personally, I don’t have enough historic background on this issue to have a definitive opinion – perhaps we’d all better read the new book before making statements of “belief” that may not have any basis.
> However – one thing to note is that a given quilt would not need to give the directions to the entire Underground Railroad route (even assuming that there was a single route, which was obviously not the case, since people were starting from and going to different places). All it would need to give would be directions to the next “safe house” along the road, and how to know who would help you. And I think it is quite possible that some very simple “signals” could do that.
> Also, I’m not sure I accept Jocelyn’s conclusion that you would need more detailed directions 150 years ago than we would need today to go from Point A to Point B. I think it’s quite possible we would be the ones to need more directions, at least to use the same methods that those people did.
> I think you have to compare apples and apples – not walking and navigating via landmarks and the sun vs. driving and navigating numbered highways. Orienteering is not a skill we develop or use (even Boy Scouts don’t do it much these days), so most of us would need a lot more detailed information to do it – just as someone from the Civil War era would need a lot of training to read an Interstate map and drive a car.
> There are many examples where people a century or two ago had background knowledge that we lack today. So the level of information escaping slaves would need to navigate might very easily be much less than what we would need, even to cover the same ground. Maybe people in that era would understand how to interpret something like “Walk a half a day due north, look for the hill with the two large oak trees and then head northwest until you cross a creek” – while using the same directions, we might get quite lost.
> A good example of this principle is old cookbooks. There are many which assume quite extensive knowledge about some basics, and this is knowledge that most people today don’t possess.
> That is why you will see recipes from 100-150 years ago which just say “make a double piecrust” with no proportions or instructions -while today, you might have two pages of photo illustrations just to get that step done! (and that’s if the recipe even assumes you’ll attempt to make pie crust!).
> Melissa
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:04:09 -0700
> From: Eileen Trestain <ejtrestain [at] earthlink [dot] net> To: QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com
> Subject: QHL: RR quilts
> Message-ID: <364DC619.C4F2987D [at] earthlink [dot] net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Here I am putting in my two cents worth, but here goes.
> While most of us who are discussing this here, about the feasability of RR quilts, I want to state that we are not of the culture which is going to hear about this legend in normal state of affairs. Even Marikay Waldvogel mentioned in her lecture in Santa Fe a few years ago that the WPA project quilts, when researched, gave her the impression that there was more to the story than she was told, possible because she was not of the culture. Quilts were so common, that it was an easily overlooked item in any household. Many whites were so negligent (is that the work I want) as to think the blacks ignorant, and unable, when they were just as clever, and perhaps much more resourceful than they were ever given credit for.
> If RR quilts were present, and I have no reason to believe they were not, then we whites (as the enemy) would be kept ignorant of them because of their need for secrecy. I see no reason why the continued secrecy about them would not remain as part of their culture, long after the need for RR quilts existed. Despite the 100+ years that have passed since the Civil War, I see many reasons why the black culture would have reason to distrust the white. I always hope that quilts will become a bridge between the cultures, and am very happy when some of the African American people join a quilt guild, and bring their work to share and expand our horizons.
> i think that the recent publications on African American quilting are a good sign, and I hope to see lots more.
> Eileen, speaking as someone who’s family lived two miles north of the Mason Dixon, and were known for their work building hiwaways for the RR.
> (Stepping down off my soapbox now, and going back into hiding.)
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:02:36 -0600
> From: Russell-Hill <russhill [at] ctesc [dot] net> To: Quilting Hert list <qhl [at] cuenet [dot] com> Subject: QHL: URR
> Message-Id: <199811141803.NAA17202 [at] nrtc-pub-mail [dot] affiliate [dot] nortel [dot] net> Content-type: text/plain; charset=”us-ascii”
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> Hi everyone,
> I am finding this subject so interesting and enjoy what all are having to say. Like a cyper discussion group. Cool. I would like to second what Melissa had said in her last two post. If most slaves could not write or read all they had was oral tradition. And if it were an everyday event or secrative they would not have much to say on it although it may have been passed on later. Also folks back in the 1800’s had more knowlegde of things we don’t have or need. Yet we seem to be going back to that way. Like planting by the moon or planting crops that were compatable to each other in the same area and herbs for medications etc. We think modern is better when it is not always.
> In the town where I live now the newly settled Germans were loyal to the Federal Gov.because they gave them the opportunity to live in a land that was free. When TX voted to join the South in seccession Fredericksburg was one town that stayed loyal to the Federals. Many of the families saw their husbands and fathers taken from their homes and hung in front ot them because they would not sign up with the confederacy. My point is that a lot of hidding went on a lot of fear was present and so many of the older folks are still to this day terrified to speak about the Civil War and what happened here. More of the younger people are showing interest so it will finally become a topic we can reseearch more. If you notice it is a lot of younger black people researching the Underground railroad talking to the elders and asking them what they remember or what was told to them. Debbie
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:18:50 -0600
> From: “lynreich” <lynreich [at] coredcs [dot] com> To: <qhl [at] cuenet [dot] com>
> Subject: QHL: URR
> Message-Id: <199811142116.PAA21930 [at] chaos [dot] coredcs [dot] com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hi all,
> I’ve been reading about all of your thoughts on quilts used as signals for underground railroad escapes. Something we need to remember is that there very well may be written record of how slaves were transferred north, but that record was encoded for the safety of the family owning the safe house as well s the slaves.
> Russell Baker’s novel “Clousplitter” is about John Brown and his involvement in the abolitionist movement. He and his family actively transported escaped slaves from their farm in Northern New York to Canada prior to moving to Kansas. The safe houses were changed often because of the watchful eyes of the slave catchers and the neighbors who were paid to notify the authorities should any action be noticed. When we read diaries or household logs and accounts from women, we have to remember that sometimes more is said between the lines. We need to look for that out of the ordinary comment. For instance, I was working with the diary of a woman from Michigan in the period of the 1870,s. She wrote of taking a week-end trip. Further research revealed that she had a two year old son she was attempting to wean and her overnight stay was in some regards an attempt to wean her son.
> I’ve enjoyed listening to this discussion.
> Lynda
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:57:14 PST
> From: “Kim Heger” <kheger [at] hotmail [dot] com> To: QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com, Lalalawyr [at] aol [dot] com Subject: Re: QHL: Underground railroad
> Message-ID: <19981114215715.9171.qmail [at] hotmail [dot] com> Content-Type: text/plain
> Yes, Melissa, I agree with you! Just because no one wrote about it in her diary does not mean that it couldn’t or didn’t happen!
> Kim
> From: Lalalawyr [at] aol [dot] com
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:23:15 EST
> To: QHL [at] cuenet [dot] com
> Subject: QHL: Underground railroad
> In a message dated 98-11-13 16:50:39 EST, kheger [at] hotmail [dot] com writes:
> << she stressed that she bases her conclusions on written documentation such as diaries. She told us that in all of her extensive research, she had never found conclusive evidence written in a diary or journal about quilts used as maps for slaves during the Civil War…. in the case of quilts as maps for slaves, it might have been too secret to even write in the pages of a diary. >>
> With all due respect to Barbara Brackman, she may have been looking in the wrong direction for her research and her conclusions.
> If I’m recalling correctly from my history, it was illegal to teach slaves to read and write. Certainly it was not customary or generally done. And those few slaves who could read and write would be unlikely to have the resources (paper, pen, ink) or the leisure time to keep a diary.
> And if the slaves didn’t keep diaries, who else would have? I think the only other candidates I can think of are slave owners and abolitionists.
> Obviously, the slave owners aren’t going to know about this, let alone write about it (assuming such “map quilts” existed). And since assisting escaping slaves was illegal, abolitionists are highly unlikely to have kept anything that could be used as evidence.
> So I’m not sure it is very likely that there would BE any diaries about slave quilts.
> But to give Ms. Brachman’s methods the benefit of the doubt – even if there were such diaries – we have to wonder how many got preserved, and how many were either lost or destroyed or simply have yet to be unearthed by a historian.
> Of course, an historian would look for such documentation – but I’m not sure it is accurate to infer from its lack.
> Melissa
> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:10:51 EST | From: CToczek [at] aol [dot] com
While I see merit to both sides of the discussion, I do tend to lean more towards B. Brackman’s research and the issue of “family history.” Word of mouth tales do tend to change….and I’m talking short term even….. In the military we have a “calling chain” for alerts and deployments, a pyramid you might say, where the spouse on top calls the one below with the pertinent information, who calls the next, etc. etc. By no means is it a perfect system. You would (or maybe not) be amazed by the message content by the time the alert clears the chain. I’m talking about a span of hours, not a hundred years.
On another note, I can’t help throwing in a tongue-in-cheek observation: what if another family near the RR route had aired a flying geese quilt on the same day?
It appears some of us must be from (or near) the Show-Me state, huh? <VBG>
Carla
West Point, NY
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:10:29 -0800 (PST) | From: bevquilt [at] sprynet [dot] com
Recently I met a woman who had inherited a trunk and when she opened it contained 2 stunning quilts from the 2nd quarter of the 19th century and a white Marseilles loom made spread. I had never seen anything like it though it reminded me of a woven coverlet. I came home and did some research and find reference to these in “Quilts of Provence” but have found a great deal of information in “Uncoverings 1982″ in the paper “Marseilles Quilts and Their Woven Offspring” by Sally Garoutte (p.115). Have any of you seen these, and if so, what are they selling for? I would also appreciate any ideas that any of you have on the rarity of these pieces. I know that I have never seen one before.
Thanks, Bev. the lurker…………….
—
Beverly Dunivent
HTTP://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/bevquilt
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:57:10 +0400 | From: Xenia Cord <xecord [at] netusa1 [dot] net>
Marseilles spreads are pretty common in the midwest; as a dealer in antique textiles I find them hard to sell unless they are perfect/unusual. I have sold damask-finish child’s spreads with jacquard/marseilles woven alphabet blocks for over $100, but find it difficult to get much more than that for full spreads with matching pillow covers.
The Sears repro catalog for 1898 shows “white bed spreads” and “Marseilles pattern” spreads for 50 cents (!) each, or $5.75 a dozen. Others run from 75 cents to 3.25 for the best quality “Very Fine White Marseilles Bed Spread with a satin damask finish, full regular size, beautiful patterns, floral center. Money can procure but few handsomer bed spreads than this one is; it’s a spread that is worth a gread deal more than the money we ask for it.” (page 289)
However, I went to a high-end antique show this weekend, and a dealer of my acquaintance told a customer that his Marseilles spreads were $495 each. Don’t know if he sold any at that price.
The spread Bev saw may have been the real thing, not an American-made copy. Don’t have any info on prices of these, but I suspect they are dearer here than in France.
Xenia, in Indiana
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:41:45 -0600 | From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co [at] mail [dot] airmail [dot] net>
Beverly,
Carolyn Miller from McKinney brought a Marsaille type spread to the VQTS meeting several months ago. I just phoned her to get the scoop on it again. She bought it at an antique store in Ft. Wayne, Ind. when she was there for the NQA show ( July?)
It is in very good condition, clean and she paid $100.00 for it. She said that she saw several in Houston and the vendors had them for 200-300. We have been trying to do some more research ourselves on it, and have not come up with much more documentation than you have listed. Carolyn did tell me that she ran across another book with some more information, but she had just walked in the door from the McKinney Guild’s retreat….needless to say her mind was still on retreat mode. She said that she would try to think of the title and get back to me.
Hope this helps.
Laura
******************************************************** We invite you to become a memeber of the Vintage Quilt and Textile Society. An organization devoted to the sharing of research and knowledge of antique quilts, textiles and related subjects. While monthly meetings in the Dallas, Texas area are available for those who can attend, our monthly newsletter mailed worldwide enables those members to participate by contributing articles and book reviews pertaining to the selected topic of the month. Membership dues are $24.00 anually US membership, International membership $30.00 US funds only
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Richardson, TX 75082 for a complimentary copy of the newsletter and membership application. ******************************************************** At 11:10 AM 11/15/98 -0800, bevquilt [at] sprynet [dot] com wrote:
>Recently I met a woman who had inherited a trunk and when she opened it contained 2 stunning quilts from the 2nd quarter of the 19th century and a white Marseilles loom made spread. I had never seen anything like it though it reminded me of a woven coverlet. I came home and did some research and find reference to these in “Quilts of Provence” but have found a great deal of information in “Uncoverings 1982” in the paper “Marseilles Quilts and Their Woven Offspring” by Sally Garoutte (p.115). Have any of you seen these, and if so, what are they selling for? I would also appreciate any ideas that any of you have on the rarity of these pieces. I know that I have never seen one before.
>Thanks, Bev. the lurker…………….
>—
>Beverly Dunivent
>HTTP://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/bevquilt
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:26:55 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM [at] delphi [dot] com
On 14-NOV-1998 13:05:43.3 ejtrestain said to JOCELYNM
> If RR quilts were present, and I have no reason to believe they were not, then we whites (as the enemy) would be kept ignorant of them because of their need for secrecy. I see no reason why the continued
Eileen,
The Underground Railroad was not a black-only effort. Many, many white people were conductors or keepers of safe houses. If the quilts were to be hung as a sign to conduct people from safe house to safe house, the whites would have had to have known about it.
If, on the other hand, the quilts were being made by black people in slavery as maps to guide them north, I still have the question of how they could convey enough detail to be of value. ‘Walk half a day’ means a considerably different distance if you’re talking about fit young adults, or if there are any children, or wounded people, in the group. These people were literally betting their lives that when they went up to a house, it was the right one. If it were easy to teach directions, Harriet Tubbman and others wouldn’t have risked their lives to go back and act as guides. The very fact she did this is evidence that despite slaves’ having knowledge about orienteering, that you can’t teach that sort of crucial detail. I know I couldn’t piece a Flying Geese quilt, one that would be unremarkable as an example of its pattern type, that could show someone how to go from my house across town to my office. By the time I tried to show the ‘turn east’ and ‘turn back north’s, it would certainly be a very attention-getting quilt. And I would have the benefit of having a big scale, and having my map-user have paved streets to follow. Could I accurately describe a trip of hundreds of miles, so accurately that the map-users would be able to arrive at safe houses and avoid the thousands of houses where betrayal awaited? Could I count on the directions never changing, so that a quilt that was started last year would still be accurate next year? Boggles the mind, doesn’t it? That’s why until someone can explain how a quilt mapped the journey, I just can’t believe that they DID.
Jocelyn
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:27:28 -0500 (EST) | From: JOCELYNM [at] delphi [dot] com
On 15-NOV-1998 09:52:03.3 philspan said to JOCELYNM
> However, I have read all these messages with interest. I wasn’t aware that the quilts were supposed to be actual maps. I had heard the story that the center color of the quilt was a message indicating a safe I also remember someone telling about how members of the family would remember stories differently from each other. This is what happens with stories that are not documented. Things get lost/change/added in translation. But, the foundation for the story is still there. So I would not be surprised that the quilts did have some meaning or message back then. I would only wonder how much the stories had been
Lee,
That’s exactly what I believe. Quilts were probably used as a signal… and over the years, people who didn’t really understand what they’d heard turned it into the quilts being used as a MAP. Both legends have survived. Both have been repeated in books, and there are many people who are fond of the legends, and resist considering the objective logic behind them. It’s like the people who firmly believe that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree….it’s too good of a story to be muddled with facts….. The absence of primary sources may not prove that something never happened, but it’s dangerous to assume that something DID, if the sources don’t exist. Lots of legends have cropped up over the years. Like the George Washington story, many were deliberately created by moralizing educators to emphasize their point. (Create a lie about GW to prove that lying is bad? Yep. ) In the late 19th century, making up a story about historical events, to be able to give a nice moral, was consider OK. The UR, by that time, was a generation or two removed. Ladies’ magazines of the time waxed poetic about ‘quilting like Grandma’. It’s entirely possible that some of our legends about quilts were deliberate creations to romanticize Grandma and her quilts.
Jocelyn
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:22:16 EST | From: Baglady111 [at] aol [dot] com
I thank you all for your kind expressions for our appearance on SIMPLY QUILTS..it was great fun and the most wonderful part is that it has brought us new members and GREAT INTEREST..
No, they are no longer made..we deal in the original’s and have a membership of aobut 500 who buy/sell/trade among themselves..and as much as we would love to welcome you to the club..you DO NOT have to be a member to have access to them..only a better advantage..
I lecture all across our country and it is most rewarding to hear the wonderful memories guild members/club members share with me…many of our members are in the club for the access to the sacks. but there are also many, many members who love the history of our feedsacks/textiles also..they are just plain FUN!!!
Jane of THE FEEDSACK CLUB come and see us at our convention in April at the same time of QUILTERS HERITAGE CELEBRATION in Lancaster, Pa..
www.hickoryhillquilts.com/feedsacks.htm
www.his.com/~queenb/feedsack.html
